Early New Zealand Stamps with Toning/Rust to gum side - How common is it?

Tania Radley

I mainly deal in First Day Covers but have started to sort through my vast stock of stamps to put on sale. I found a dealer stock book of Mint New Zealand Stamps from 1873 through to the 1960's.

My question is: how common is it to find early Queen Victoria & Edward VII mint NZ stamps with toning in places to the gum side?

About 25% of this stock has toning/rust issues to the gum side only with excellent condition fronts to the stamps. Another 5-10% have very faint minimal toning to the fronts. Is the toning common and a result of weather conditions in that part of the world - or is it just poor storage?

Also I usually price my stamps at between 10% and 20% of the Stanley Gibbons cat. values. Are toned gum stamps "devalued" to a great degree? Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Michael Generali

If you want to know how devalued a stamp with damage is, honestly ask yourself two questions:

1. Would you want to add such a stamp to your personal collection?

2a. If yes, how much would you pay for such a damaged stamp?

2b. If no, then you know that the stamp is worthless.

Rod Tilyard

Hi Tania, that toning (rust) will spread through and ruin any collection - it's like a virus

Giving them a wash in boiling hot water will kill the rust and clean them up.

Selling early stuff mint no gum within the price range you mention is fine with many collectors.

Michael Generali

Boiling water can damage the paper. I have used an ammonia bath to clean the toning.

michael j park

toning is prevalent throughout the Pacific region.Better mint no gum..I use a weak (very) chlorine solution & keep an eye on it,wash with cold water.I have never used Ammonia but the same should apply.If you leave it & forget you may come back to a blank paper.(that is how you get forgeries on watermarked stamps).Any region where you can get high humidity can get toning,why I do not collect mint (especially unhinged)

michael j park

Hi again,the block you show is very common BUT there are flaws & variations.If you want a scan of the page no problem just contact me.

Rod Tilyard

"Boiling water can damage the paper". Never had a problem with boiling water with 30 years of removing/killing rust. Of course fugitive inks would be a problem.

Tania Radley

So - the general consensus seems to be that these stamps should be "cleaned" (by whatever method) leaving them as "mint no gum" before selling

Michael Dodd

another view.. perhaps contentious but I think it needs to be said.... anyone with material like that and asking the question and considering "cleaning" it is not being totally honest to philately, to a potential buyer, or to themselves, assuming they know anything about philately I guess ......, just my view.... ok, maybe it is with a very rare flaw or variation.. but doubtful as we all know this stuff is common beyond belief. .....not written to offend anyone but to establish a standard for us all....

Tania Radley

Sorry - but I was just asking the question. I have never "cleaned" a stamp as I mainly deal in First Day Covers. However a number of replies here suggest it is done. If I end up doing it I would price the stamp accordingly and describe it as "now mint no gum".

Michael Dodd

No apology required. and, my apology, I am not trying to be clever with this, just helpful....... First of all I do not know what stamp this is and I doubt anyone reading can tell you. It looks like a perf 14 so it might be SG 303, issued 1902 or perhaps SG 349 issued in 1904. There are many issues of this stamp. I say that based solely on the photograph. A scan would of course be better with some description of colour, there are various shades / colours: and watermark, there are a few watermarks; and perforations, there are many perf varieties. And this is of course Ignoring the fact it / they are stained / rusted / toned beyond cleaning from what I can see.
For reference the following are copies of this stamp image:
SG 276, 278, 280, 282, 284, 286, 288, 290,292, 295, 297, 299 and 301, 305, 307,349, 350 and 351, 352,353, 354, 355, 356, 357, 358, 359, 360, I am of course ignoring the stamps printed from slot machines. – with apology to those who have a much better understanding of this Universal Penny Postage stamp and can better describe its varieties.
Perhaps this adds some light to the stamp. Lets just agree to disagree about selling; although if you really want a further view, and yes perhaps just mine and not a “general consensus” it is worthless, if you apply the excellent logic as so well put much earlier by Michael G, - subject to the caveat about any rare flaw or variety.

Tania Radley

Seems like its best to just leave them (I don't really have the time anyway) and try to sell them at a low start auction on ebay where the buyer - if any - can do what they like with them.

I like and prefer selling covers - they are more interesting to me. Trouble is I Have acquired many thousands of stamps which will need to be sold at some stage and which could become a "minefield" for me taking into account all the other things that I have to do?

Rod Tilyard

These are not saleable while mold infested. If you don't want to rescue them as proposed with a wash then you need to toss them in the bin, otherwise any unsuspecting purchaser will rehouse them in their collection and lose the lot to mold.

Tania Radley

OK - you have just changed my mind. I'll experiment and wash them in a hot very weak chlorine solution - rinse them - and sell them as "now mint no gum".

Tania Radley

Done it - first impressions good while damp. Will post some photo's in a few days once allowed to dry naturally. No colour pigments in water just pale yellow colour to water from the infected gum.

Rod Tilyard

Good job. Looking forward to the photos

Michael Dodd

Can wait Rod.. :-) .............. Tania, would you be prepared to show image to potential customers.... .. " Then and now... after cleaning........... oh, and what is the SG catalogue reference.. or Scott will do....

John John H. Talman

Tania: You are getting a lot of great advice and much of the information is well worth keeping for future ref. and perhaps for other more valuable stamps or even a few of these with varieties. I like the "Junk Box" idea and sell many of these during the course of the year. One of my regular buyers of "Junk Boxes" bought two just a few days prior to Christmas for an order of $200. inc. shipping and tax. He lives in my Province and is close for shipping. A few more Junk Boxes are listed in my Jan. 7, 2018 Public Auction with bidding on some at over $100. bid. You have a head ache or something that isn't selling well for you or you have more than you want of an item, etc., etc.,put them in your Junk Box and get rid of it.. If you get a good enough price on your "Junk Box" you can always beef it up. Some people love loads of stamps and covers to sort thru and buy Junk Boxes off me on many occasions. If I have a really good Junk Box I call it a "JUNQUE Box". Certainly take a look at those early N.Z. stamps and check for varieties, etc. and anything you can salvage and make a buck on. If you get tired of doing this put them in your Junk Box and end your problems. You will have a lot of fun and a few headaches going more heavily into stamps rather than just covers. Good luck. John Talman

Tania Radley

M D - yes I would be prepared to show the image but I doubt others who sell mint-no-gum stamps do? If the cleaning works than I will list as "mint-now-no-gum" and sell at a greatly discounted price rather than dumping the stamps,

Rod Tilyard

You have actually saved some stamps which were destined for the bin. To me you have done the hobby a service. Conservation of stamps is a good thing!

You haven't altered them in any way.

Just like all (off paper) used stamps are washed off, along with any dirt, grease and grime - the washed off used stamps are cleaner than when on piece. There is no need to show before (on piece) images of used stamps and there is no need to show before images of these stamps.

Tania Radley

RESULTS: (my opinion - inconclusive)
So - here are the resulting stamps from my first "quick wash" experiment. I use the term "quick wash" as that relates to the total time for the proceedure - soak & rinse - without the drying time which was only 2 minutes.

I would say that there has been at least a 90% improvement to the appearance of the back of the stamps which I guess could be improved even more by experimenting and tweaking the method (for example a slightly longer soak and the addition of a little more chlorine as a steriliser - because the amount I used was so tiny).

My opinion is that there is no change or damage to the front of the stamps as the colour of the water did not indicate this? However a negative is that while handling to wet heavy stamps some outer edge perforation separation did occur.

OK - to the "purist" - these stamps are no longer mint stamps and they are not used/cancelled stamps, they are now "mint-no-gum" stamps. So the next question to ask "IS THERE A MARKET FOR THESE TYPE OF STAMPS?".

So I did a search on ebay and currently there are 3,845 listings for these type of stamps with another search revealing 1,901 recent sales. I know that I would rather "conserve" these stamps and sell them for "something" and not just throw them in the garbage/rubbish bin. However - I don't have the time - so maybe in the future when I come across more valuable stamps which require some "conservation" I might well dip my toes (I mean fingers) into the scalding water once again.

Rod Tilyard

Tania, sad result unfortunately. Can you humour me and experiment with say 5 minutes in boiling water (that is, water just boiled, poured off into a container).

Tania Radley

Sorry Rod - my experiment days are over for a while as my finger tips are to sore

Tania Radley

But seriously Rod - I am sure with some more experimentation and practice much better results could be achieved without damaging the pigment on the front of the stamps.

andrew Hellenschmidt

Nice effort Tania, I still enjoy soaking large amounts of stamps in the bathtub. It's not quite a bubble bath but it does feel relaxing. There are only a few known mint stamps that you should soak the gum off because they contain sulfuric acid. Germany B68,C57-C58. The rest is up to your discretion and of course use extra care with attempting to help more valuable stamps. Some folks even prefer to remove hinges completely on used stamps, I don't go that far.

George DeKornfeld

"...I still enjoy soaking large amounts of stamps in the bathtub. It's not quite a bubble bath but it does feel relaxing. "
Andrew...........are you in the tub with your stamps?..........

andrew Hellenschmidt

Haha heavens no, there has to be a good joke about stamp collectors preferring virgins. The toning is very common on early British Commonwealth and warmer climate areas. The boiling water trick seems best for foxing/toning if you are inclined to do so.