Shipping responsibilities
The USPS in my experience almost never "lost" anything I send out. But that has changed lately, stuff I expect to be delivered here also missing. Most of the time the stuff will eventually show up, but I recently was given an ultimatum, "I want the stamps by *** or I,m going to get HipStamp to intervene". I asked Hip about it and the response was to tell the other guy to give it another few days and then issue a refund.
I have seen sellers state in their description or their shipping info that they will not be responsible for packages lost in the mail. Can this actually be done? Some also include something like "If you don't agree with this, then don't make any purchases"..Can I actually enforce something like this? I don't want to include the latter. Is it possible to have a way to give a buyer the option to purchase tracking, ie make it a package and the added charge? You could say "before paying contact me.for an invoice...", I asked a while back about having the option to get tracking or not. I know about the comfirmed or preferred buyer, but wouldn't you have to set that up for all buyers if that was your intent? Purchase and pay immediately, that is one of the popular feedbacks. i asked about the possibility to have an extra shipping "country" like "with tracking", instead of Canada that would be the best way to go that I can think of.. I haven't tried to do this I think I will, later this afternoon, I have a Dr appointment and I am one of the millions that is going to be affected with the latest monster storm. I Am in the south so it will be severe thunderstorms with possible flash flooding and tornados.
Nice knowin ya!
Or how about "split the cost of a refund" ?
I have seen sellers state in their description or their shipping info that they will not be responsible for packages lost in the mail. Can this actually be done? Some also include something like "If you don't agree with this, then don't make any purchases"..Can I actually enforce something like this? I don't want to include the latter. Is it possible to have a way to give a buyer the option to purchase tracking, ie make it a package and the added charge? You could say "before paying contact me.for an invoice...", I asked a while back about having the option to get tracking or not. I know about the comfirmed or preferred buyer, but wouldn't you have to set that up for all buyers if that was your intent? Purchase and pay immediately, that is one of the popular feedbacks. i asked about the possibility to have an extra shipping "country" like "with tracking", instead of Canada that would be the best way to go that I can think of.. I haven't tried to do this I think I will, later this afternoon, I have a Dr appointment and I am one of the millions that is going to be affected with the latest monster storm. I Am in the south so it will be severe thunderstorms with possible flash flooding and tornados.
Nice knowin ya!
Or how about "split the cost of a refund" ?
Comments
One thing I will say is that PayPal's operating methods pretty much preclude a seller from a non-refund policy. If a buyer complains about a purchase not arriving, PayPal is going to see to it that the buyer gets a refund.
How were your missing shipments caused by the UPU regulations? I have had many foreign shipments, with none having gone missing.
This is not new and has nothing to do with the UPU. What is new is that it has to be shipped as a parcel. That it has to be shipped as "merchandise" and accompanied by a customs form has ALWAYS been required - at least back to 1985 when I first started. Albeit often ignored - it was still the law.....
And that has been that way under the Paypal sellers protection for a very long time.
To clarify, are you saying that if I purchase a Certificate of Mailing, that PayPal will not see that as evidence I mailed the item?
Here is the information of what a certificate of mailing does
CERTIFICATE OF MAILING
The USPS defines a Certificate of Mailing as: A Special Service that provides evidence that mail was presented to USPS for mailing. Certificate of Mailing service does not provide a record of delivery.
The form must be presented to a USPS employee for examination at the time the letter is placed in the mail. The USPS employee examines the form, assures that proper fees are paid (at this writing, $1.40 for one letter, $8.25 for six to 1000 letters; and $1.03 per each additional 1000 letters).
Unlike other special services where the amount paid for both postage and related fees is placed on the individual letter, with a Certificate of Mailing the postage for the appropriate fees is affixed to the Certificate of Mailing form, the USPS employee stamps the form with an official stamp which indicates the location and date the letter(s) was mailed.
The USPS employee returns the validated receipt to the mailer. Unlike other Special Services, the USPS does not maintain a copy of the Certificate of Mailing. The USPS does not track these letters through the mail stream. The USPS does not verify that the addresses on those letters are complete or accurate, nor does it keep a record of whether any of those letters were returned to sender.
A Certificate of Mailing is NOT proof that a letter was received by the addressee. Since the only record of the mailing is in the possession of a party of interest, the addressee cannot rely upon the business records of a disinterested third party (USPS) in contesting the receipt of such a letter.
Many mailers are aware of the defect inherent in this form of mailing documentation. The Internal Revenue Service, for instance, recognizes this problem. The IRS asserts that: "A Certificate of Mailing with a timely date is not as evidence to them that a letter was timely sent to the IRS." A Certificate of Mailing and a letter to the IRS both stamped at the same time on the same day at the same place may be considered proof.
WHY ARE CERTIFICATES OF MAILING USED?
Common uses of Certificates of Mailing include documentation that an article was mailed on a timely basis. Bulk advertising mailers, for instance, might request a Certificate of Mailing as evidence to their client that the requested number of advertisements were mailed on the requested mailing date; or a company submitting a competitive bid for a contract might obtain a Certificate of Mailing to establish the date that a bid was mailed in case the postmark might be illegible. In both of these hypothetical situations, the addressee must have the envelope and the sender must have the corresponding Certificate of Mailing.
USPS Warns Mailers that a Certificate of Mailing Does Not Provide Evidence that a Letter Was Mailed to a Particular Address
Two USPS forms must be presented to the USPS when requesting a Certificate of Mailing: PS Form 3606-D "Certificate of Bulk Mailing -Domestic, and PS Form 3665 "Certificate of Mailing -Firm"
Page one of Form 3606-D cautions the mailer: "This Certificate does not provide evidence that a particular piece was mailed to a particular address." Page two of form 3606-D clearly states: "Certificate of Bulk Mailing - Domestic service does not provide a record of delivery, and the Postal Service does not retain any copies of PS Form 3606-D. The mailer cannot use PS Form 3606-D as a certificate of mailing for individual mailpieces or itemized lists".
The difference is that tracking is proof of delivery and a certificate of mailing does NOT do that.
https://www.experts.com/Articles/Certified-Mail-Versus-Certificate-Of-Delivery-Whats-The-Difference-By-Peter-Wade
Here are Paypals seller protection requirements
To be eligible for PayPal’s Seller Protection, you must meet all of the following requirements:
The primary address for your PayPal account must be in the United States.
The item must be a physical, tangible good that can be shipped.
You must ship the item to the shipping address on the transaction details page in your PayPal account for the transaction. If you originally ship the item to the recipient's shipping address on the transaction details page but the item is later redirected to a different address, you will not be eligible for PayPal Seller Protection. We therefore recommend not using a shipping service that is arranged by the buyer, so that you will be able to provide valid proof of shipping and delivery.
You must respond to PayPal's requests for documentation and other information in a timely manner as requested in our email correspondence with you or in our correspondence with you through the Resolution Center. If you do not respond to PayPal’s request for documentation and other information in the time requested, you may not be eligible for Seller Protection.
If the sale involves pre-ordered or made-to-order goods, you must ship within the timeframe you specified in the listing. Otherwise, it is recommended that you ship all items within 7 days after receipt of payment.
Item Not Received additional requirements
To be eligible for PayPal’s Seller Protection program for a buyer’s Item Not Received claim, you must meet both the basic requirements listed above and the additional requirements listed below:
Where a buyer files a chargeback with the issuer for a card-funded transaction, the payment must be marked “eligible” for PayPal’s Seller Protection on the Transaction Details page.
You must provide proof of delivery as described below.
Unauthorized Transactions additional requirements
To be eligible for PayPal’s Seller Protection program for a buyer’s Unauthorized Transaction claim, you must meet both the basic requirements listed above and the additional requirements listed below:
The payment must be marked “eligible” or “partially eligible” for PayPal's Seller Protection on the Transaction Details page.
You must provide proof of shipment or proof of delivery as described below.
Establishing proof of delivery or proof of shipment
The following is required as:
Proof of shipment
Proof of delivery
Online or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes:
Date of shipment
An address for the recipient that matches the shipping address on the Transaction Details page
An address for the recipient showing at least the city/state, city/country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent).
Online or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes:
Date of delivery and ‘delivered’ status
An address for the recipient that matches the shipping address on the Transaction Details page
An address for the recipient showing at least the city/state, city/country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent).
Signature confirmation, if the full amount of the payment including shipping and taxes exceeds a fixed amount (based on the currency of the payment) from the signature confirmation threshold table below. Signature confirmation is online documentation, viewable at the shipping company’s website, indicating that the item was signed for.
https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full
Under the seller's protection rules as a certificate of mailing is NOT trackable and CAN NOT be verified as being delivered the answer is no,they won't because they CAN'T verify the delivery of the shipment.
Does this sound right?
This is where International shipments get ugly, because I think only one time out of a hundred have I seen the final delivery successfully scanned on First Class "packages" sent internationally (with tracking).
I have been showing more then that as being delivered. Most of Europe,Australia,Israel and Canada have all been showing up as being delivered.
Sorry, bad attitude.
1. DATE OF SHIPMENT
2.AN ADDRESS FOR THE RECIPIENT THAT MATCHESTHE SHIPPING ADDRESSON THE TRANSACTION DETAILS PAGE
3.ADRESS FOR THE RECIPIENT SHOWING AT LEASTCITY/STATE , CITY/ COUNTRY , OR ZIP CODE OR POSTAL CODE
THIS ALL CAME FROM THE PAYPAL SELLER PROTECTION PAGE SO WHAT YOU WROTE ABOVE ABOUR HAVING TO BE TRACKED IS NOT CORRECT.
Going back to January 1st out of 13 shipments 8 were scanned and show being delivered. 2 shipments would not be scanned end to end because of the countries they were sent to.
One was showing that the label was created but not yet in the system. (Error with the PO)
The final 2 weren't scanned after a certain point as to why no clue.
Remember you are paying a discounted rate for your shipping. Often times there are trades offs when you get a discounted service. With a discounted service you may very well end up with bare bones minimum service for that price. And that may very well be WHY they are only be scanned so far when you are using shippingeasy as opposed to the USPS directly.
The paypal requirements are quoted directly off of Paypals user agreement and they do have this in the user agreement under seller protection
Establishing proof of delivery or proof of shipment
The following is required as:
Proof of shipment
Proof of delivery
Online or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes:
Date of shipment
An address for the recipient that matches the shipping address on the Transaction Details page
An address for the recipient showing at least the city/state, city/country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent).
Online or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes:
Date of delivery and ‘delivered’ status
An address for the recipient that matches the shipping address on the Transaction Details page
An address for the recipient showing at least the city/state, city/country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent).
Signature confirmation, if the full amount of the payment including shipping and taxes exceeds a fixed amount (based on the currency of the payment) from the signature confirmation threshold table below. Signature confirmation is online documentation, viewable at the shipping company’s website, indicating that the item was signed for.
Under the user agreement to be covered under the sellers protection you MUST have BOTH proof of shipment and PROOF of DELIVERY.
According to the USPS under a certificate of mailing they say this
The USPS defines a Certificate of Mailing as: A Special Service that provides evidence that mail was presented to USPS for mailing. Certificate of Mailing service does not provide a record of delivery.
......
A Certificate of Mailing is NOT proof that a letter was received by the addressee. Since the only record of the mailing is in the possession of a party of interest, the addressee cannot rely upon the business records of a disinterested third party (USPS) in contesting the receipt of such a letter.
Both of those are taken directly off of Paypal or USPS.
You're missing it because this is what they have under the basic requirements under seller protection
Basic requirements
To be eligible for PayPal’s Seller Protection, you must meet all of the following requirements:
The primary address for your PayPal account must be in the United States.
The item must be a physical, tangible good that can be shipped.
You must ship the item to the shipping address on the transaction details page in your PayPal account for the transaction. If you originally ship the item to the recipient's shipping address on the transaction details page but the item is later redirected to a different address, you will not be eligible for PayPal Seller Protection. We therefore recommend not using a shipping service that is arranged by the buyer, so that you will be able to provide valid proof of shipping and delivery.
this is the link to Paypal's full user agreement page
https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full
It is very clearly stated that you MUST have BOTH valid proof of shipment and delivery.
The above was copied and pasted from the full user agreement page.
Just another point on this
Thanks Michael, I understood that, but what I failed to identify was that PayPal required proof of delivery, not proof of mailing. I was under the impression that if I had evidence I mailed it, I was covered. Apparently not. Therefore, Seller is responsible for items "lost in the mail". Insurance would be required, and the Seller would have to make a claim against the carrier if PayPal got refunded for lack of delivery. But if an online trackable showed evidence an item got delivered, then the claim by the Buyer would not stand up, suggesting to me that a Buyer would NOT be responsible for actions of porch pirates or mailbox pilfering (assuming carrier scanned item as delivered on whatever tracking service).
Under contract law the seller was always responsible for making sure the shipments got to the buyer. The reason is ids that the seller has 2 different contracts in a sense. The first is with the buyer. The sellers are to get the orders to the buyers correctly and as described. It is on the sellers to fulfill that part of the contract. Say you sent a $250 order to any city in your state,the buyer does not get it for any reason or is making the claim that they did get it and you refuse to refund the buyer,he buyer can take you to small claims court and would win that judgement if you did not have the documentation of that shipment being delivered. Paypal is not asking for anything different then what you would need in a small claims case.
The seller does have a second contract with the shipper. For lost packages the seller is the one to deal with the shipper. Because that contract is between the seller and the shipper NOT the buyer. The seller is contracting with the shipper to get it from point A to point B,undamaged. Insurance on the packages is NOT to protect the buyer it is to protect the seller.
Sellers have various options to achieve that.
1 - use a third party shipper as Doug described above (shipper is responsible in the event of damage or loss)
2 - ship the item using a shipper who has a traceable tracking method (USPS, Fed-EX, UPS, DHL etc.) - seller assumes most or all of the risk in the event of damage or loss
3 - same as #2, but purchasing insurance from the shipper (shipper assumes the responsibility in the event of damage or loss, or a third party mailing insurance policy - the buyer usually can file the claim in the event of damage; seller files claim in the event of loss)
4 - ship without using tracking or insurance (seller assumes 100% risk in the event of damage or a loss - this is called "self-insured")
When you hear sellers screaming that they had to refund the buyer for non-delivery or damage, many of these sellers chose #4, and assumed the risk. It was a decision that they made, In many instances, the seller chose #2. If insurance wasn't purchased by the seller or provided for the shipment by the shipper, that's where the sellers tend to scream as well, but in this situation, the seller chose not to provide added protection (insurance) in the event of damage or loss.
It comes down to how much risk is a seller willing to take (chance) on forwarding purchases to buyers? Each seller has to answer that question for themselves based on either a global determination or based on each sale.
Paypal and Ebay are just following the laws. In the case of lost shipments under the contract laws until the buyer receives the shipment the liability for the shipment remains on the seller.
A lot of it comes down to the fact that many people just do not want to or take the time to educate themselves on these things for whatever reason. It's far easier to cry and scream about it after the fact than it is to become proactive and find out what one needs to do before hand.
We ship all over the world and just accept the fact that we are going to get burned, and also the reality that Pay pal will reach in to our pockets and take our money as they see fit. I think another online payment platform to eat Pay Pals lunch a little would be nice to see. And yes this site is very good among other things about shrinkage, loss. I (we) usually see "lost items" or for that matter rude as hell buyers that generally have below 30 feedback's, not a solid rule to bet the farm on, just our personal; experience. But getting burned bothers us less and less as that's the risk. We're generally pretty happy , just look at us!