Deceit!

I purchased a stamp for almost $200 ($196.50) that was listed as “Unused” by the seller. I received the stamp and had it expertized a year later because of covid delays by one of the top 3 international expertizing companies and it came back as being a “Used” stamp. I doubt this is the first time in history that has happened.
But there is a devious twist to this particular situation. This seller (from Alamo, CA) told me he expertizes stamps for these companies and I subsequently verbally confirmed that he did. I mailed the stamp and certificate back to him and it was like pulling teeth getting a refund from him. First, he said my certificate could be wrong because “they make mistakes”. Then he said “I’m out of the country” and would take care of it “first thing upon arriving back”. I waited over a week after he got back and contacted him again and he finally sent the refund for my original purchase. But, despite him telling me he would reimburse “…whatever the amount is just send back to me” he refused to reimburse the $46 cost of the expertizing fee I paid to prove his deceit and the postage to send the stamp and certificate “certified mail” back to him.
Although he expertizes stamps professionally, he misrepresented this $200 stamp on his site, delayed refunding the purchase cost once he was proven to have done so, and lied about reimbursing “…whatever the amount is”. Hipstamp did nothing wrong here, the expertizing company did nothing wrong here, and I did nothing wrong here. The seller, from Alamo, CA, is the only one who has tarnished this industry and hobby.
Here’s my 2 questions. I’ll make my own decision about question 1) but I would appreciate hearing from others in this hobby before doing so. 1) Given that I can prove every word of this through our exchanged messages, should I divulge his name here to warn others of his character and help keep them from falling into his scheme? 2) Is it unreasonable to expect him to reimburse the $46 cost of the expertizing and return postage proving his deceit?
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Comments

  • 33 Comments sorted by Votes Date Added
  • There are so many unanswered questions here. Did you suspect the stamp was used when you received it? Is that why you had it expertized? Did you communicate that to the seller? Did you ask the seller if he would pay for expertizing if stamp was not as described? Overall, I don't blame the seller for being hesitant after a year had passed. I think you should have returned it immediately if you were suspicious about condition and value. I suspect seller would have issued refund and all would be well.
  • And the answer to the first question is NO. This is not a forum to announce so and so is not a good seller. If anyone wants to know, we can message you. But not on a public forum.
  • Hi Mike, sorry to hear about this misadventure. Would be helpful to post the stamp and certificate you received if you still have an image of it. That would give us a better idea of why the seller potentially misrepresented this. We all make mistakes (for sure). Your story confirms WHY expertization is so important. So , even though this took a super long time, you did get refunded the money spent on the item , but not the return postage or the expertization fee? Correct. Sadly, unless its stated before the transaction, there is no obligation to cover this. If it were me, I would refund it all, just to maintain goodwill and for me it would be the right thing to do. I agree with Luree, it would not be a good idea to publically shame the seller, but privately if someone asks you, thats fair game. My very best to you! RBravo
  • As the seller/expertiser stated to you, the one(s) who examined your stamp could have made a mistake. The seller may have made a mistake in listing the stamp. If you believe that the seller acted fraudulently, then it may be appropriate to contact the expertising service to alert them. BUT, that's only if you believe fraud was involved. You have to make that decision.

    From how you laid out the incident regarding your purchase, I personally don't think that there was fraud. He sounds more like a cranky, old dealer. But he did do right in the end as Rene alluded to above. However, the final decision is really what you believe, since you have all the facts.
  • Mike,
    If the seller is an ASDA accredited dealer, you can report him to the association. This is a big part of why the association exists. HOWEVER... I'm a little concerned that you're assertion that it was a specific deception. I'm understanding of reluctance after a year on the cert as well, but I've had stuff certed by the PF, and PSE during the pandemic and it still comes back to me in 3-4 months (and I live in Japan).
    That said, I certainly have a list of dealers that have burned me on a first round, and after 2 months refused to allow a return after I found an item "under described". (In one case a regum and in another case a repair that I didn't spot for a couple of months, because I just didn't examine it closely). Both dealers refused to take them back (I paid over $1,000 for each of them...) and so I sold them (for what they were), and obtained new examples, and never bought from either of those dealers again (both of which are not ASDA members...)
    But generally speaking, if you have something you want to get certed (whether suspicious or not), then you should make sure the seller is aware, and agree time and policy. In reality, I have always taken anything back that someone didn't want, no matter how long the time, so long as the condition was the same as when I sold it. In over 20 years, I've only ever had 2 items come back... both within 3 months.
    Our policy also is such that, we will refund the cost of the cert so long as the cert is sent back to us with the stamp. (But that has never happened).
  • Hello Mike,

    I'm sorry to hear you had this issue. While the forums are a great place to come and get knowledge from your fellow collectors, its always best to reach out to Hip if you are having an issue with a specific person. If you would like to report a problem please reach out to support@hipecommerce.com and we would be happy to assist.

    Thanks!
  • I'm still interested in comments but I think the major point has been overlooked thus far. This man gets paid for doing expertizing work for international companies!! He is an "Expert" in the field and has the expertizing equipment right there in his home/office. This isn't a typical seller...he is a professional expertizer for international companies as well! I find it almost impossible to believe he didn't know what he was REALLY selling at that price. That's the main point of my contention and story...HE IS AN EXPERT and he "didn't know"?! That point is critical to this or I wouldn't have pursued the expertization fee to begin with.
  • Mike... but to your point, he gets paid to expertize. Did you pay him to expertize the item he is selling? (Hint on this one: it's unethical for him to cert his own material). Should he look, yes, but is he human? I think you're really taking this as he maliciously tried to rip you off, and a year later you come back with a cert that you hadn't discussed prior to. Sorry, but I think you're really being too critical here. Otherwise, don't buy from him. What do you want this community to do???
  • Expertizing is an "opinion" and certs explicitly say so ("...and we are of the opinion...") and as such are not quite etched in stone. Older certs are occasionally being reversed as technology and knowledge increase. It may be as simple as this seller's OPINION being incorrect, and not necessarily an act of subterfuge. Just because he's an expert doesn't mean he couldn't make a mistake.
  • Hey Scott, I really appreciated your first post here. I did send the cert back to him (which he still has) with the stamp. Although I found out later that, coincidently, he does expertize for the very company I used, he was not involved in the expertization of this particular stamp. I spoke with the expertization company who confirmed he worked for them and that he was not involved in expertizing this particular stamp.
    You asked "What do I want this community to do?". I want this community to know there is a guy who is an "Expert" (professionally)...he's not just a seller out there selling misrepresented stamps...and I want to give his name so others don't get caught in his game. Let me ask this, if guys like me don't speak up when he refuses to cover the cost of his "misrepresentation", what's going to stop him? This community buys stamps based on a certain level of trust. Sellers take no risk because they get paid before the stamps are sent to the buyer and that's the way it should be. Buyers take the risks when buying online. Had I not found this guy was a professional expertizer for some of the largest expertizing companies in the world I would have been satisfied with just the refund of my stamp cost and gone on. But for $46, ($46!!), this guys reputation as an "Expert" is at risk and he doesn't care. If and when I give his name, I won't have the slightest concerns about libel or defamation since they require untruthful writings or public statements...and I can prove every word I've written here by the messages between he and I. Telling the truth was a good thing in my younger days, and I'm proud to say that I haven't changed.
    Here's one more quote from a message he sent me “If I agree with the APS cert I will naturally refund you everything”. I guess he "mis-spoke" when he told me that too.
  • Pls read George DeKornfeld's comment. A cert is an opinion - they get overturned fairly regularly. They used to be very political - certain dealers got certs easily, others did not. There have been several high profile reversals of "good" certs in the past few years. Your seller may actually have more knowledge of this area than the person(s) who reviewed the stamp.
  • I don't think Mike is arguing that certs are sometimes overturned. If I'm reading this right, he is feeling a sense of being taken advantage of. I totally get that. Big trigger for me as well.
    His main point is, he bought an item from a dealer that also does expertizing work for at least some of the big 4. And so, when he sells material, he expects a level of comfort from that dealer that the material is represented accurately, and if not, then it should be an easy process to get it refunded.
    I struggle a bit here Mike because... you won. You got a refund, though maybe a little more work than it should have been, but after a year had passed, so you have to take some accountability with that. I suggest that you treat this as a one off. Maybe don't buy from that dealer again. But give the benefit of the doubt that his intention wasn't malicious, he just missed it. I can say I am a highly reputable dealer, and I have missed stuff. I also have staff that work for me, so I don't examine ever single item, and sometimes they miss stuff. So we accept that and we work to make it right. And sometimes (even when we've given full refunds and told them to keep the material, they are still "angry" with us, leave negative feedback, etc.). Not much I can do in that case. You can't please the world, and you can't "protect" the world either. Report him to ASDA, if you think that's fair. Report him to the expertizing committees he works on, if you think that's fair. But a public Name and Shame is unlikely to do much good. Vote with your wallet, and just buy elsewhere.
  • Thanks Carol (and George) but the seller himself proved your points wrong.
    In the quote from him that I provided above...“If I agree with the APS cert I will naturally refund you everything”. First, he must have agreed the certification proved it was misrepresented or he wouldn't have refunded anything. Second, he lied when he said “If I agree with the APS cert I will naturally refund you everything”. And third, I understand George's point about older certs but...this cert was from this year.
    George, you said "Just because he's an expert doesn't mean he couldn't make a mistake." I agree with you. But, if you were "an expert" and you "accidently" sold a "misrepresented" stamp that you sold for more than twice the market value of that stamp if had been correctly described, would you refund the buyers cost of the cert?
    One answer to that question could be "No, I'm not legally obligated to refund that cost" and that is correct, the seller in this case is not legally obligated to do so. The problem with that answer though is that it's irrelevant...I'm not questioning whether or not I have a legal case here because I can't prove fraud by getting in this man's mind. But, as an expert I would not even hesitate refunding the cert cost because of my own "mistake". As I said, he's not breaking any laws by refusing to cover my cost of his "misrepresentation". But, everyone must also realize, I'm not breaking any laws either by giving the facts of this situation, including his name, as long as I'm telling the truth. I'll decide in a week whether to do that or not, but I would appreciate more input before I do.
    Yes, he could have made a mistake, that's a possibility. But he could also have done this intentionally, that's also just as reasonably a possibility. Given the circumstances and messages (between he and I as quoted above) related to this specific case, the smartest and most ethical response would have been to refund the cert cost whether legally required or not.
  • Great post Scott, you hit the nail on the head. I hadn't seen that yet as I was apparently posting when you sent it.
    Please give me your store name as you're the kind of dealer that keeps this hobby worthwhile. I've spent thousands on stamps thus far and have another $10,000 or so to go before I complete what I want in my collection (are us collectors ever really "done"??)
    Given what's in this guys messages to me and given his lies in those messages, he wouldn't have refunded the cert cost if I had informed him of his "misrepresentation" 4 months or 4 days after the sale.
    This hobby shouldn't have near as much risk as it does because of guys like him.
    Reporting him to any agency would have no effect whatsoever because I can't prove his intent, but his actions and lies prove his intent in my opinion. Notice that I'm not telling buyers not to buy from him in these posts...I'm simply telling a story with the facts at hand. He may have done it intentionally and he may not have, let the reader decide. If I give his name I may be implying buyers should not buy from him and I may not be implying that, let the reader decide. Thanks again for the post Scott.
  • Scott posted his store link of a different thread so I have added it for mike

    https://www.hipstamp.com/store/classic-philatelist
  • Mike, I get where you're coming from, and I'm not trying to rile you up here, but I am playing the devil's advocate, fwiw.

    "George, you said "Just because he's an expert doesn't mean he couldn't make a mistake." I agree with you. But, if you were "an expert" and you "accidently" sold a "misrepresented" stamp that you sold for more than twice the market value of that stamp if had been correctly described, would you refund the buyers cost of the cert?
    One answer to that question could be "No, I'm not legally obligated to refund that cost" and that is correct, the seller in this case is not legally obligated to do so. The problem with that answer though is that it's irrelevant...I'm not questioning whether or not I have a legal case here because I can't prove fraud by getting in this man's mind. But, as an expert I would not even hesitate refunding the cert cost because of my own "mistake".'

    Would I? Yes but that's me (and many other sellers).
    BUT, when an item is purchased and 'put on extension' to allow time to get a cert, this process is generally set and done within a couple of months, and the specifics of who gets stuck paying for a bad cert should be outlined in the seller's description and/or terms of sale. These usually include time limits, especially for auction houses that don't want their consignors' funds tied up for too long. From where I'm sitting, TECHNICALLY, after a year has passed, you're pretty fortunate to have received a refund at all (and I understand the delays due to the pandemic, although other companies like the PF might still have been in operation....dunno.)
    Just to complicate matters, what if the new cert is wrong? Its been known to happen. What a disaster that would turn out to be.
    I would just take my refund and run. Again, I would have refunded the cost of the cert, not out of embarrassment but as a measure of my doing what my gut tells me is the right thing to do. Its just sad that this dealer doesn't share that mindset and his terms of sale weren't clear. Lesson learned...never spend another farthing with him, ever.
  • Hi Michael, thanks for posting our store link!
    Cheers,
    -S
  • Hi Mike. I'm a buyer, not a seller, on HipStamp. I'm trying to imagine a stamp that requires expertizing in order to know if it was used or not. What about the stamp made you think it was used? Or did you have it checked to be sure it was genuine? Were you surprised that it came back as used? What were you hoping for when you sent it in? I would like to hear the story. It is interesting and intriguing. Please share.
    Just BTW, I am learning to hate "unused" as a category. It seems to mean damaged.
  • John! I use "unused" all the time!!!! Please don't hate (comma) me!!! Seriously though, I use that term simply to distinguish a mint stamp (condition literally as it came from the post office) to one not postally used but hinged or with damaged gum, or some other condition other than PO fresh. In addition, many folks will list an item as mint when it is not postally used but hinged or otherwise. I personally think this makes a buyer more disappointed upon receipt of the item than when it would be more accurately described as unused and hinged. But I do discuss this issue in my store policies though to attempt to clarify.
    Just my 2c which is what its probably worth.
  • Wow, great last 2 posts George and John, thanks for the input, whether I agree or not, you write with reasonable thoughts and (in my opinion) from-the-heart open honesty.
    George first:
    "Would I?" (refund the cert cost) "Yes but that's me (and many other sellers)." That's because you have ethics George, regardless of the legal situation...like Scott above...you're good people and this hobby needs more like you...
    "Just to complicate matters, what if the new cert is wrong?" Good point, except...even this guy agreed the cert was correct or he wouldn't have refunded the cost of the stamp to begin with. Certs from this company require 2 independent experts ("expertizers") to come to the same conclusion about a particular stamp before they'll issue their certified opinion. And get this, he expertizes stamps for the same company I sent this stamp to for expertization. I spoke with them personally and, because of my ethics, I won't repeat what they said about him personally...but they do like his expertization work...go figure,,,,
    John next:
    "I'm trying to imagine a stamp that requires expertizing in order to know if it was used or not." Welcome to the ugly side of stamp collecting John. There are people out there who know how to "clean" some stamps so that regular buyers, like you and I, can't tell a "Used" stamp had ever been used. Selling that cleaned "Used" stamp as an "Unused" stamp is deceit and a way for the seller to make even more money (at best, unethically, if they won't cover your cost of the cert and at worst, illegally if you can prove intent...but good luck, how do you prove it? Only an "expert" can tell...hmmmm). If it was intentional, they get away with it and no one, but the seller, knows any better...unless you happen to have that stamp expertized.
    "What about the stamp made you think it was used? Or did you have it checked to be sure it was genuine?" There was absolutely nothing that looked unusual when I received the stamp, it looked exactly as advertised so I left positive feedback. Over the next couple of months I'd been hearing horror stories in the stamp community about "bad" sellers so I decided to have every stamp expertized that I had I paid more than $100 for.
    "What were you hoping for when you sent it in?" I really wasn't "hoping" for anything...I just assumed, back then anyway, that the cert would come back exactly as the seller had advertised the stamp. I don't buy "Used" stamps. Of the 25 certs I've received thus far, this, and only 1 other, came back as "Used". The other problem was resolved quickly because the seller was the same caliber as Scott and George and some others above. As of now, I have 30 more certs I'm waiting for the results on.
    "Were you surprised that it came back as used?" That would be putting it mildly John.
    "I would like to hear the story. It is interesting and intriguing. Please share. " It's a fascinating story given the specific details of this particular situation, which is why I chose to post here to begin with. However, with all due respect John, the pertinent details are in my posts above so there's no reason to repeat them. Carefully read my posts above and if you have any further specific questions let me know.
    "Just BTW, I am learning to hate "unused" as a category. It seems to mean damaged." You gotta get over that John since that's not true at all. That's a different discussion than this one so rather than me addressing that here, you should start a new discussion in this forum and you'll find the reason for that term...ethical sellers aren't trying to deceive you with that term. An "Unused" stamp may or may not be damaged...be careful. Check the replies to your new discussion...there are excellent answers from posters out there much smarter than me that will explain the reason for the term "Unused". For instance, see Greg's post directly above this.

    Finally, "anyone can make a mistake". I agree with that statement, we're human. I would have given a normal seller the benefit of a doubt and asked for, but not pursued, the recovery of my certification cost. However, this seller isn't just a seller on stamp sites. He is an expert who gets paid to expertize stamps for international expertizing companies. He said he "accidently" misrepresented the stamp and he "didn't know it." I'm going to throw a rhetorical question out there and think hard about your personal answer. Do you think this seller has ever cheated himself by "accidently" selling a high value MNH stamp ("Mint Never Hinged" for newbies) as "Regummed" because he "didn't know it? And don't forget his message to me that I quoted above...“If I agree with the APS cert I will naturally refund you everything”.
    And thanks again for all the feedback coming in, I do appreciate it whether we agree or not.
  • edited July 2021 1 LikesVote Down
    Out of curiosity, and I don’t mean this in an obnoxious way at all, I just am interested in opinions, what if the cert came back valuing the stamp way higher?

    You purchased it for ~$200 but what if the cert came back saying it was worth $5,000?

    Do you go back to the seller and offer him more money or is this a “sucks for him since he made a mistake” situation?
  • Well, first of all, certification only validates authenticity and other pertinent findings related to assuring that a stamp is what it is reported to be. Monetary value is not assigned. Second, what you describe is rare in reality. The point Mike A is contending is his concern about deliberate deceit which is a valid discussion point. A larger discussion on situational ethics can be entertaining, but diverts away from Mike's points. With that, for all of you , this has been a good discussion.
  • As always, Reno hit the bullseye....as he always does! Certs from the company I used don't assign value or grade. Comparing the cert to the sellers listing description generally tells you if you got what you paid for. Sorry Becky, "experts" know exactly what they're selling,
  • "experts" know exactly what they're selling,"

    Experts often disagree - which expert do you believe then.
  • Carol, you've completely missed the point of this particular discussion. This seller "expert" did not disagree whatsoever with the 2 experts who certified the stamp.
    Start your new discussion if you're really interested in "Experts often disagree - which expert do you believe then."
  • Mike and Greg, regarding unused stamps, I speak out of ignorance, not malice. Of course the category unused isn't the problem, it's how some people interpret it.
    Now Greg, whom I've bought from, describes his stamps well and sells quality stuff. I know what his unused means. I stand corrected, gentlemen.
    I think I can garner your story pretty clearly now. I guess you did get screwed on the stamp, initially. But eventually you got your money back and it only cost you $46.00. Some companies charge a restocking fee of up to 20% when you return an item. I think you are taking it too hard. Let it go. The seller didn't get your $46.00 the expertizing company did. What the seller owes you is an apology.

  • Gracias John! I'm still working on the other thing though. :smiley:
  • . . . thing, though.

    Fixed it. :smiley:
  • Oooooh,,,,,,The Oxford comma rears its controversial head! LOL. Refer to the other thread for a new episode tomorrow.....
  • edited July 2021 0 LikesVote Down
    As the demigod Kurtvonnegut writes, "Live by the commas* - that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy." -- The Books of Punctua. I:5

    * Harmless punctuation marks
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