Help!!!! Can anyone shed some light on this item?

Harry Patsalos

OK I give up, This thing has been sitting on my desk for quite some time. Any ideas? I'm not sure if it is Japanese of Chinese.

Jerry.Burkhart

one my favorites.. :-) Japanese silk seal. basically a late 1800's item that was attached to a bolt of silk indicating that it went through quality inspection. I sell them for about $25 in this condition (nice) This company also did one with 4 turtles in the corners in various colors. very saleable.

Jerry.Burkhart

a similar item - same size - of about same date on silk.

Jerry.Burkhart

Harry Patsalos

Jerry Thank you. One less thing to sort.
All the best,
Harry

Scott Payton

It's not Japanese, it's Chinese.
The information in the center is about province in China. The four corners say Inspection Approval Ticket.
The script in between is part of a date.

Scott Payton

Jerry, your fist one is Chinese as well. The second one you post is Japanese.

Harry Patsalos

Scott, So is mine Japanese or Chinese?

Jerry.Burkhart

i assure you-- all of them are Japanese

Scott Payton

Nope.
Chinese.
Only the last one is Japanese.

Jerry.Burkhart

nope :-)

Jerry.Burkhart

I have had maybe 200 different ones of these they vary with Woodblocks, cranes, Mt fuji

Scott Payton

Ok.... here's why they are not.
First, I've had both native Japanese and Native Chinese speakers review the text. They have both confirmed that the first two are Chinese, they contain Kanji that Japanese does not use, and they are essentially "unreadable" to them (as to me).
Second, the hanko (red stamp) utilized on them don't match Japanese hanko. Hanko in Japan is round or square. These are both oval and rectangular, and contain Chinese Kanji, not Japanese Kanji... The last one has the term "Dai Nippon Teikoku" which is how Japan was referred to during and prior to World War II. So it is certainly Japanese. There is the interestingly and unusual "Kwashia" which would be termed "Kaisha" which means "company". But some evolution of language in "romaji" spellings has evolved. So that is fun.

Scott Payton

That's nice, a Wikipedia article ('cause it's never wrong) about a bird from Japan that appears on a Chinese stamp.

Jerry.Burkhart

:-) all these stamps are well known items- japanese research them on the internet. :-) we will have to disagree like the "chiba" stamp i listed before that you thought was Chinese.. the language is at best.. mostly not understandable by most but the companies that used these are well known. no big deal but they are Japan.. all of them

Scott Payton

Well Jerry, you are wrong. Simple as that. Try living in Asia for 20 years, and then I'll listen.
Read your own Wikipedia aritcle:

The red-crowned crane, also called the Manchurian crane (traditional Chinese: 丹頂鶴; simplified Chinese: 丹顶鹤; pinyin: dāndǐng hè; the Chinese character '丹' means 'red', '頂/顶' means 'crown' and '鶴/鹤' means 'crane'),

Jerry.Burkhart

LOL, ok Scott.. :-)

Harry Patsalos

Can this be a Japanese Company selling it's silk in China? Thus a Label in Japanese style but with Chinese language inscriptions?

Jerry.Burkhart

Your stamp is one of about 10 of this style that was done around 1880's the first of these after the more cataloged revenue issues- not sure if they money collected or were tax collected- no indication they were? they evolved as the popularity was great in Europe and became more of an advertising and branding method so the company names and perfectures were added in later issues as they realized the potential. Obvious symbolism were used such as crane, mt fuji, woodblocks. i would assume importing and exporting was done to further confuse the origin of the silk but Japanese Silk was supposed to be Superior and hence was inspected in great detail.. or at least this was the claim.

Jerry.Burkhart

this one is exactly same stamps as the second one so it is proof they are both Japan Not that I need to be right. :-) I am actually an expert at being wrong.. LOL

Jerry.Burkhart

another one of the original oldies..

Harry Patsalos

Thank you Jerry, Initially I thought they were Japanese because of the Cancel style.
Best regards,
Harry

Scott Payton

Jerry, last final note... Silk is a Chinese export not a Japan export...
I think you're hung up on the crane as your definitive here. The crane is the national bird Japan. But this crane also appears on dozens of Chinese issues. For me, the artistic style as well is more Chinese than Japanese. You have to see past the Crane, and really look at the text. No issue with "Old text" like we saw on the 19th century Japanese stamps, these are 20th century, around 1910 - 1930.

Scott Payton

And that's not a crane (in your yellow stamp example). Also the hanko is square, as I mentioned, typical of Japan. So that one, yes Japanese.
You seem to think anything with a Kanji on it is Japanese. But Chinese has two types of Kanji as well, Traditional and Simplified. Japanese Kanji is it's own creature, with roots in both Chinese character sets.

Kris Weinschenker

I'm with Jerry on this

Scott Payton

Jerry, not the same stamp at all.
How do you claim it's the same as 2nd???
You seem to think that the hanko is proof... it's not.

Scott Payton

I'm having the text of the 2nd stamp reviewed by a native Chinese speaker now.

Phil Merrill_

Gentlemen, please....

Jerry.Burkhart

LOL, :-)

Jerry.Burkhart

"Jerry, not the same stamp at all.
How do you claim it's the same as 2nd???
You seem to think that the hanko is proof... it's not."

Scott the two items were sent to Europe and bought by me from the same dealer in Netherlands.. One clearly states Japan..(not that that was needed as I know the material, well)
they have full cancels as seen, one of the cancels is the same on both stamps. Just saying.. use a little common sense and admit I am Right!! (LOL teasing) :-)

Jerry.Burkhart

3 more.. I just love these stamps.. and quite rare yet affordable