Do dealers need to notify buyers about CTOs?

I just purchased several sets of Cuban stamps from a well known stamp dealer and they are definitely marked CTOs. Does a stamp dealer have to disclose that the stamps that you are purchasing are CTOs? I believe you cannot purchase Cuban stamps in mint condition after 1961 (the stamps I purchased are on or after 1970) does that make any difference?



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Comments

  • 38 Comments sorted by Votes Date Added
  • Cuba or not, if I have a CTO listed, I'm telling you it's a CTO in the description. Period. Don't know about any limitations on Cuba stamps though.
  • edited February 2022 1 LikesVote Down
    well Wayne, playing the Devil's advocate.. I would say you purchased it knowing it was, what it is, and if not you seem to now know it? .. don't blame it on the seller. accept the blame yourself. most sellers will take things back, with a smile.. did you try that without blaming him/her as technically they did nothing wrong? Many many stamps are CTO in some manner, especially modern foreign used to make sales off of collectors or even precancels. also a very common practice with cinderella material. wondering how you missed the fact of its date and that it was CTO- yet you now have the USA embargo rules as an issue? LOL :-) Also, sellers have no way of knowing what country you live in before you buy something. And I doubt the USA DOJ will charge the seller or YOU for a low value stamp illegal transaction. :-)

    :-) kind of like buying drugs.. seller and buyer are charged but don't expect charges on a tiny roach from a joint.
  • As with Greg, I will also identify any CTOs I am sure are such. Many dealers don’t, even though they picture perfectly clear 1/4 CDS corner cancels or a partial fancy cancel from a First Day Cover. There are also types of CTO cancels that are not obvious, unless you have studied a stamp catalogue and know what to look for.

    If there were no images included in the listings you purchased from, then, yes, I think the dealer is obligated to identify them as CTO, not simply “Used.”

    If there are images included, while I wouldn’t go so far as to say the dealer is obligated, I strongly believe they still “should” ID them as CTO. It is simply the ethical way to conduct business. I look askance at any dealer who does not identify obvious CTOs.

  • Postally used is much different than a CTO and can many times be of considerably different value. Often the difference between minimum value and many multiples of that.
  • I was told that a CTO is basically a used stamp with original gum and can not be a mint never hinged product as it does have a cancel. I have tried to identify the stamps as CTO when listing. That being said, I still have several stamps that are not identified that way as they were listed pre-me or when I first started out and didn't know what I was doing. Can you believe that was only 10 years ago? Anyway, I do hope my customers, as all buyers will have some kind of knowledge that when purchasing a stamp they will read and understand the description listed. And if they have a question to ask it. I have changed and grew in the way I have been doing more research on stamps when listing. But, hey, I be human and therefore will make mistakes.
  • Any stamp that has been "Canceled" whether used or not, is by definition a used stamp. This includes CTOs, bureau pre-cancels, and FDC not actually postally used.

    I have not seen any premium for non-CTO in the US stamps, at least not significant differences, however not sure how that impacts some of the world-wide stuff.

    Whether the stamp has gum or not, does not change it's status as a cancelled stamp (where cancelled = used for the purpose of definition of condition of stamp).
  • So, you are saying that even though a stamp has no gum, but originally was a CTO, it should be ID'd as a CTO without gum?

    This is where I learn, so if it seems a silly question, it probably is, but I would like to know for further listings.
  • Nothing like a conundrum to test the mind :-) in answer to the original Question. yes, no or maybe .....all depends on the quality or the seller I guess. .............and is there an image or not, and is it obvious the stamp is gummed or not? and so on and so on..........

    Then again........

    Linns: Canceled-to-order: "Stamps are ""canceled to order,'' usually in full sheets, by many governments. The cancels may be printed on the stamps at the same time that the stamp design is printed. A stamp with a cancel and with full gum is likely a CTO stamp, as CTOs do not see actual postal use. CTO stamps are sold to stamp dealers at large discounts from face value. Most catalogs say whether they price CTO stamps or genuinely used stamps."

    PTS. Cancelled to order (Generally from PO "specimen" packs) hey they wrote it not me.....

    MIMI CTO: (short for: cancelled-to-order) means that the stamp was pre-printed during the printing process with a seal resembling the cancellation used in postal use. Since the seal of use is pre-printed, this means that the stamps are never to be circulated postally or

    Cancelled to order by issuing post office and has original gum but cancelled to "appear" Postally cancelled.

    or

    Cancelled to order by issuing post office and has original gum but cancelled to "appear" Postally cancelled.

    and they go on and one I wont repeat it all

    A stamp store ---- no names no pack drill --- - Cancelled to Order. (C.T.O) Stamps which have been cancelled with a postmark being withdrawn new issued for sale to collectors. Cancelled to order stamps are usually neatly cancelled.

    New Zealand Philatelic Federation - Cancelled to Order 1) Term describing a stamp bearing a postmark applied “by favour” where a postal official would cancel the stamps in sheets or on covers and return them directly to the dealer or collector.



  • A hint can be found in Scott where in places it sez CTO's are valued as used stamps.
    CTO's are in large part pariahs in the States whereas in parts of Europe, they are highly favored.
  • Scott also states in areas where appropriate that the used value is for CTOs, and that poatally used stamps are worth more.
  • edited March 2022 1 LikesVote Down
    I think British Colony Specimens (and Australia and Paraguay) are so common they almost fit into this CTO status? Obviously the Specimen OP was added to prevent postal usage and certainly adds very little value to things like Lady Diana Sets or similar. I dont even list them as they are so common and all are mnh of course. I probably have pounds of them in weight. :-) - very similar to CTO and actually i think they evolved to replace CTO with the hope that the specimen OP adds value (though it rarely does as all they are imo, is another form of cto)
  • Excellent point about the Disney Island specimen stamps.
    We all know the usual suspects for ctos. There are also ctos in unexpected places. I bought both of the first Luxembourg Europa sets as used, and found they were ctos. Oh well, lesson learned. Roughly half of my Liechtenstein used stamps are ctos. And I have two sets of Swiss semi-postals that are ctos. I wish all of these had been noted by the dealers, and now I wonder if these are thus less valuable.

    Conversely. I have several hundred East German stamps soaked from kiloware and certainly postally used and if I were to sell them I would certainly brag about it.
  • If a CTO stamp was without gum and you re-gummed it, what would its status be? Sorta CTO (correcting to original) a CTO.
  • UH(?)NGRGCTO maybe? Hmmmm, comma.
  • MNHRGFIRESTARTER
  • edited March 2022 0 LikesVote Down
    ,,,,,, NGRGCTO - Now Greg Really Got Commas To Overpopulate? ,,,,,,,,,!
  • Overprint,,,,,not overpopulate,,,,I think, or do I????
  • In y years of buying and selling stamps back in the '70's you could buy CTO sheets of stamps without gum to add more to the conundrum.
  • I had a conundrum once but, once I thought about, I wasn't quite sure about it.
  • I could never learn to play mine.
  • You have to use all three of your fingers at the same time, ergo, the conundrum...ergo???
  • edited March 2022 0 LikesVote Down
    Ah, like this? BINGO! ...er, bongo. Anyway its a bit like playing an eardrum with a q-tip
    360_F_271331683_mdtjwqHFv3HS0gcDwpLMRY1PTvVR30Rf
  • Have either of you tried therapy?
  • Congratulations guys it took you 13 posts to go way off topic. You have a couple of threads to goof off on and you find a way to stop the learning process.

    Way to go!
  • edited March 2022 5 LikesVote Down
    LOL, so True!! I wonder if they are purposely doing it or are just not here totally? I think the former. it boils down to total not caring disrespect. and.. always the same people that do it here. even after warned.
  • Please accept my apologies.
  • Yeah, me too. Figure I'll restrict future posts to that one forum. Enjoy your academic (yawn) playground.
  • Aren't ALL stamp collectors "just not here totally"?
  • OK, WHEN SCOTTS CATALOGUE MAKES A LISTING FOR CTO. OTHER WISE THEY ARE USED.
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