Blue Paper Issues

I have been looking for reasonably priced 359, 362, 364 issues for two years now. They seem to have made enough of them. But they sure are hard to find. One guy had them all. But his prices were not reasonable. And now he is gone.
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  • Siegel is having the Adventurer sale on 3/7. Contains all 3 scott #s.
  • Bob, what do you consider "reasonable"?
    What condition also? Used, unused, what centering?
  • edited March 2023 0 LikesVote Down
    Reasonable for these three would be under $1,000. Each. Unused. Back condition not as important as front centering.
  • Robert. I have an account at Siegel. But I can’t say that the site is easy to navigate. Can you give me a link to that action? I can’t find it.
  • Well, they are all CV above that, 359 OG at VF center is $1,800, 362 OG at VF is $1,250 and 364 OG at VF is $1,600.
    This is all about market. Your comment "They seem to have made enough of them". Only about 4,000 of them were ever issued. Compare that with the Scott #39. There were around 3,000,000 printed. It sold very poorly, but around 50,000 were sold, mostly as unused examples to early stamp dealer (who bought several pages, and why the unused 39 is much easier to source than a used 39).
    The market drives these values. I would suggest, your estimate of $1,000 each would be for poorly centered, OG stamps.
    SMQ for 359 at F (Grade 70) OG is $900, 362 F is $625 and 364 F is $850. If this is what you're after, I'm sure you can find them. But if you're expecting VF centering to be around $1,000 each, that expectation is unrealistic, as SMQ shows 359 VF OG is $1,800, 362 VF is $1,250 and 364 is $1,750.

    The Siegel sale Robert mentions the 359 has apparently "inherited" an internal crease, so maybe you get that one for less than $1,000, there are 2 362's with VF centering, you may get lucky on one of those at $1,000, and the 364 is graded XF (90), that has an SMQ of $3,250, I would suggest, you have no chance on this stamp below $2,750.
  • Thanks Scott. I was not on the correct site.
  • Note that Siegel left Stamp Auction Network and they have their own web auction platform. So if you plan on bidding you need to sign up directly with them. Siegel's Power Search contains lots of useful realization information. I find it an invaluable tool as you move up the difficulty ladder.

    You have to remember that they collect 18% commission, your state's sales tax plus shipping of at least $25... the last number that would have many HIP buyers boiling the tar and pulling out the feather sacks. So you need to incorporate that into your net price expectations.
  • Enough of them is in reference to the others that I am missing. For example 140-144. They are rare.
  • Not really the same comparison Bob. The 140 - 144 are the H grill issues in high value. Interestingly, while there may have been more of them printed, there are far fewer that survived. Most are used. So you may have had tens of thousands sell, but 12c in 1870 was a lot to pay for anything, considering the equivalent value of $1 from 1870 to today is $23.

    Stamp collecting was alive in those days, but not like it is today. So the survivability of those stamps, where there were 100,000's of thousands printed, most were discarded after letters arrived. Having one bought and stored for "collecting" purposes, or just forgotten for a century is really uncommon.

    Fast forward to 1909 almost 40 years later, and collecting was thriving. There is news of an experimental stamp, which dealer houses are watching. When its released, they go and buy sheets of the unused stamps, to sell to collectors.

    This is exactly why the used values of the bluish paper stamps versus the unused values are all higher than those of a hinged stamp. (It's only when going to MNH are they higher in some cases, but not all (351 and 365 are exceptions, because they were common rate, and had the most sold).

    You're also seeing the force of a "free market". Where there is demand, and the supply is limited, the price is driving skyward. This is one of the appeals of collecting/dealing. It is sometimes worth the speculation of a rising stamp value. The bluish are a great example of this. They have never gone down (fluctuated) in Scott... only up.
  • Hi Bob, pulled some of my old research on this. The H Grill quantities sold for the 140 - 144 (estimates based on information from various reasonable sources):
    140 - 10,000
    141 - 80,000
    142 - 2,000
    143 - 20,000
    144 - 28,000

    Bluish paper FW's sold:
    359 - 4,000
    362 - 4,000
    364 - 4,000

    So by comparison, your comment of "They seem to have made enough of them", actually makes them more scarce (save for the 24c 142), but the postal use of LBNs was much higher. That resulted in a lower survivability, which is why their values are so much higher. You'll also note that the higher values are inverted compared to the bluish paper (that is, used examples of the LBNs are much lower value compared to unused examples, because again, the unused were either bought and forgotten, or more frequently, purposely kept by collectors, while used stamps were more abundant, despite the limited numbers, because at those high values, people generally bought, and applied it at the post office for shipping.)

    Most of the bluish paper stamps survived because the majority were not used postally.
    In any case, these stamps in both groups range from scarce to rare. (We generally classify a stamp as "rare" when it reaches a market value of at least $10,000). With the 142 unused being a unicorn, as there are no known examples to exist. (It was a strange rate, used to send mail to France as I recall, and it was scarcely needed.)
  • Wow. $10,000 to be considered rare. So even my holy grail of a 74 is not consider rare. Can I at least say it is expensive?
  • Bob. It's all about your frame of reference. For me. $50 is scarce, $100 is oh, heck no...
  • Bob, well, the "74" is a bit like Pluto. >< It's been relegated to a TC, but yeah, still a pricey one at around $7,000.
  • So we can all agree that these are rare: 613, 594, 544, 314A, 164, 5. I think all told there are a total around 106 unused copies of all of these combined. I hope to see one of them someday. I will never own one
  • Phil. It’s a slippery slope once you break the $100 barrier. From there $200, $300, $400 follow quickly then you start to look at $1000 as not that different. I have two of those.
  • Well, the 164, there are no unused examples, in fact the 164 used is unique. There are many US issues actually that do not have unused examples.
    80, 81, 82, 85A, 85D, 142, the 143A is also unique, but is not available to collectors.
  • The word "rare" gets used far too often in philately.
    I'd rather reserve it for the truly deserving issues. If we call any material over $100 "rare", that's just devaluing the truly rare items.
    Our "Scale" is:
    Very Common
    Common
    Uncommon
    Scarce
    Very Scarce
    Limited
    Rare
    Very Rare
    Unique

  • Scott I have long forgotten about the 5 early 80s. That allowed me to focus on the collecting all the Z and F grills. Which was much more satisfying.

    I had forgotten that the 164 was used. I have aways found it funny that my Scott Minuteman album has a place for it.
  • Well, every album should have a place for it. One should never stop the hunt.
    Realize, there must have been at least 200 of them (plates of 200, panes of 100), or one could argue at least 100 of them. It is one of the most difficult types to detect as well, and many expertizers do not know how to properly look for it (ribbed paper). So it's always worth to keep a watch, and that empty spot is a reminder to check every 153 you encounter. You may just turn up a million dollar stamp. The 164 is ugly, terribly centered, and still sold the last time (circa 2004) for $325,000.
    Since it is still available to collectors, it will sell again. For me, this stamp is infinitely more interesting and desirable than a C3a.
  • edited March 2023 1 LikesVote Down
    This is the only known 164
    164

    It does have an interesting leaf cancellation, but the face also has a number of pencil marks on it.
    Oh, and I left off that $325,000 was the hammer price. The total cost to the buyer was $390,000.
  • Man, I hope they took into account that missing perf at the top.
  • Well, seeing as how it is listed as "VG" in the graded ratings table, so yeah, they probably took that pulled perf into account. :)
  • I actually have that pulled perf mounted in my album right now. It is worth $15.000. Really tiny mount though...none of these will ever be in my gunsights though but fun to chat about.
  • Great showpiece, Greg. You should create an 8-page exhibit around that perf.
  • There is a photo of it on the cover of the GPPS Journal this month.
  • That was a great write-up as well, Greg: "How I Tried to Imperforate US 164."
  • Thank! I ran that perf tip through the EZGrader and it came back as an OK-45 grade....so I edited the cert to make it say Jumbo Gem Superb 100. Just sounds better. All three members of the Global Pulled Perf Society agreed.
  • I realize that this may reveal that, in fact, I am uneducated, illiterate, unlettered, ignorant, simple, lowbrow, naïve, rude, stupid, unknowledgeable, analphabetic, dumb, moronic, raw, imbecilic, uncultivated, untrained, callow, and witless, but the Cancellation looks like something that I found on my windshield after driving through the evening along the Texas Gulf Coast.

  • One of those splattered love bugs. They're coming soon to a windshield near you.
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