Learned Something Today

Today I was surprised to discover that script cancels, as in by hand with a fountain pen are often about 1/2 as desirable as stamp cancels. Sadly for me I bought a couple nice stamps with what appears to be a fountain pen V or Check mark lightly on the face of the stamp. I bought them because I liked how well centered and how the design/image was left mostly unobscured. Live and learn or damn the torpedoes and buy for appearance "I" like???

Comments

  • 19 Comments sorted by Votes Date Added
  • Be happy that something you prefer is priced lower. It’s only because manuscript cancels cannot be verified and are easily forged.
  • Well, it's not the only reason. Especially when cancelled material is worth more than uncancelled. Pen strikes are often obtained by fraudsters for the purpose of removing the cancel. (They are very easy to remove, with a little practice, a cut bleach solution will take it out in seconds, and leave the rest of the stamp looking virtually untouched). It doesn't however entirely remove it, though visibly it might seem so. Under the right wavelength UV light, these will show up.
    Always beware the "no gum" unused issue, especially if they are pre-1900.
    Interestingly, manuscript cancels on revenue stamps aren't viewed in the same way. And a nice manuscript cancel on a revenue can be viewed as "enhancing" to the issue, especially if it is scripted with precision.

    Lastly, there are some very unusual examples of "pen cancel" on stamps, which involve the original sender drawing some enhancement around the image of the stamp. This was sometimes done in the US Civil war to poke fun at leadership. But that's another story...
  • ...and depending on one's collecting interests, are sometimes unavoidable...

    ny
  • George, you may know what is in this issue, others may not, but what is shown here is NOT a stamp. It is the signature of the printer. (Technically the initials ACM - for Alanzo Castle Monson, in magenta). This stamp was used for inspection before the sale. There were two other initials RHM and MMJr, which are much rarer. (Technically, there is an A.C.M., which is the rarest form of initials and was probably used by Marcena Monson, not Alanzo).
    There are a few known without initials.

    This is what a cancelled example of the 9X1 looks like:
    9X1 Cancelled
  • I swear you guys amaze me with your knowledge and insight. I was thrilled to find that my local library has the 2023 Scotts catalog available in circulation meaning I can actually check it out. Back when I first started (1972ish) it was a reference item and the librarian would let my friend and I take it to a table only upon the surrender of out library cards until it was returned. It was not to be taken from the premises. Joke was on her because the library was air conditioned and our homes were not and we lived in Corpus Christi Texas and it was HOT!!! Anyway thanks guys for the info and insight.
  • I just re-read what I wrote, and somehow my first comment about the stamp above, is incorrect, where I said this is NOT a stamp, what I mean to say is, this is NOT a cancellation. The initials were a control as I mentioned. Must have been distracted when I wrote that line.
  • Scott, I was strictly going by the finding of manuscript on stamps, although as you mentioned, these were not cancellations.
    I didn't realize that Alonzo Castle Monson was the printer. I always thought he was the Postmaster's assistant and brother in law.
    RHM = Robert H. Morris (Postmaster).
    MMJr = Marcena Monson Jr (Alonzo's older brother).
    These fellas signed the stamps in an effort to prevent counterfeiting; unsigned stamps are known (and tres expensive).
  • I also just learned about this pen cancellation thing a few months ago. Hope I've never sold anything to an unsuspecting buyer at an inflated price!
    I love this thread and its wonderfully informed responses (all written in admirably comprehensible English, too).
  • I love the unique old pen signature cancels. Some of them are beautiful. I've never understood why that decreases value.
  • Doug, as John mentions, not all "Pen cancels" are alike, and some can be quite nice. Some are even considered "Fancy Cancels" in some circles. But a standard X or 2 - 3 lines drawn across the face, a few early issues have specific values for pen cancels (which are usually well below normal "CV" for example Scott #1 is $350 valued with expected red cancel, but pen cancel is $190). Some buyers aren't fussy about this. So if you listed something with a pen cancel, and a buyer bought it, it should be reasonably expected that they understand the material they have bought. I wouldn't lose sleep over it. It's not like pen cancels aren't obvious (except a few rare occasions).
    For US stamps, Scott stops listing pen cancel values at #39. That doesn't mean that a pen canceled stamp isn't likely to be valued less, but rather they stop tracking the value. So a pen canceled stamp post #39 will probably fetch a lower price than a standard "used" value.
  • Scott,
    What about "fancy" cancels? Does that not also affect the value of the stamp? Like a really well placed SON? Or Seasonal cancels?
  • Luree,
    Now you're wading into the deep end. :)
    Fancy cancels are as complex (if not more so) Franklin-Washington IDs. There are MANY fake (fraudulently applied, home grown) cancels out there.
    It also depends where the cancel is from, and if it's on cover or not. The most famous (and generally the most lucrative group of cancels on US stamps) come from Waterbury, Connecticut. This tiny post office in the woods was virtually home to the fancy cancel The postal clerks beginning around 1865 and extending through around 1890, were VERY bored, and very talented at cork carving. They also took great care and pride in placing the cancellations on stamps. I'm not in my office, so I don't have my Waterbury cancels book with me, but I think it mentions the name(s) of the guys who made these. One of the most famous, the "Turkey" was used ONLY on Thanksgiving, from around 1891 to 1895). It's extremely scarce/rare, there are around 8 to 10 on/off cover examples known.
    The other famous "Group" of cancels are the NYFM - New York Foreign Mail cancels. The world's leading expert in these cancellations was my late mentor, Bill Weiss. He has an excellent book on this topic, and his classification is used for these cancellations on stamps (such as ST-8P3 or ST-MP1), which designate each of them. His book covers the postal history of the NY City post office at that time, and when and where various color cancels appeared.
    Which brings me to the other point about cancels... Color cancels. There are collectors who dedicate their collecting energy and dollars to color cancellations. Depending on the stamp issue (and for US, Scott Specialized classifies these separately), the various color cancels and their values, but does NOT value fancy cancels, as they are too numerous to list). Color cancels can add from a few pennies to thousands of dollars to the value of the stamps/cover. It can take an ordinary #65 (usually $3 used off cover), and transform it into a cover with $3,503 if it has a yellow cancel. Other types of cancels can also add to the value of the stamp, such as "Collect" will add $35 to the value, or "Army Field Post" will add $60 to the value.
    Position of the fancy cancel can matter, in the case of your question about "SON", but a "SON" (Sock on the Nose) cancel of an ordinary cancel won't typically add much if any value to a stamp. In fact, if it's a killer cancel like a heavy wedge that cover the face of the stamp, you may find it hard to even sell it as many people would otherwise prefer a "face free" cancel (meaning the cancellation does not obscure the "face" of whatever dead guy is on the stamp.
    By around 1900, fancy cancels are all but gone, mostly due to clearer directions on how to cancel stamps, and the eventuality of the true "Killer Cancels" like the battleship design, and other duplex cancel devices (one to kill the stamp, and one to date stamp it's collection).
    There are other great books out there on cancellations as well. Skinner & Emo as well as Herman Herst Jr. his work "Fancy Cancellations on 19th Century United States Postage Stamps". These are all out of print, but you may be able to find them from some dealers in philatelic literature. This topic will make your head spin, and there are numerous that are just unidentifiable.
    One last note on fakery and fraudulent application of cancellations... one of the tale tell signs of a fraudulently applied fancy cancel (especially color cancels, but also black), is that the ink will soak through the paper. Any color cancel or fancy cancel you find with the ink soaked through the stamp, is 99% certain to be fraudulently applied.
  • Scott, Awesome information again super insightful and educational. And with this info in mind I'll happily proceed but I bet I'll still favor the light cancel and smallish pen cancels that preserve the image. I really love the engravers art which explains some of the enhanced hardware I own. But again keeping in mind the aforementioned lessons learned I'll happily take those stamps when found. You guys are awesome and again thanks!!!
  • Tobias, really glad this is something useful for you.
    Sometimes I write these lengthy diatribes and wonder if anyone is able to follow my ramblings. :)
  • It's been a while since I was here, but I remember there is not much Sweetness in Scott Payton
  • I know right? He really should contribute more.
  • ...I was about to call for a "clean up on Aisle 2 , someones Depends just leaked! "" when Scott replied. Seriously, Scott is very loquacious but attempts to be very accurate. I do read your stuff carefully Scott. I am a perpetual student, and in my line of work, accuracy is the "coin of the realm". Thank you. You make this forum worthwhile to engage in.
  • Hey George, I looked a little deeper into Alanzo, and your account is closer. What I found is:

    Alonzo C. Monson was a Yale and Columbia Law graduate. At the age of 23 he was a postal clerk in New York City where his brother-in-law, Robert H. Morris, was the postmaster, and his brother, Marcena Monson Jr., was the assistant postmaster. Four years later he went west to California and became a judge.

    I suppose that makes sense. As the postal clerk he was given the task of writing initials over the face of the provisionals with the Post Master and Assistant Post Master only doing this when (I would presume) the stock hadn't been initialed, and Alanzo wasn't around. Seems he became a judge, but further in the article about him, is a somewhat comical/farcical note that:
    In 1857 he started his journey back east and sailed on the S. S. Soora after losing his house and his money in a famous poker game.

    Quite the character it seems.
  • edited March 2023 2 LikesVote Down
    Oh, I'm sorry, what I meant to say was:
    Welcome back Kris. It's great to see you.
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