USPS Web Site Goes Downhill Another Notch
Hi everybody, This is the first time recently I've gone onto the USPS web site to get a price for postage to Canada. After going through the regular screens (Screen 1, Destination = Canada, Screen 2, weight is 3 oz, option = "Letter", Screen 3 = letter size "none of the above, square, rigid, odd size")
Screen 4 has one option, international first class for $1.61 However, if I choose "Price Charts and Complete Information", I get Screen 5 "County Conditions For Mailing - Canada". If I scroll through this and watch carefully I find the "Refer To Notice 123" which automatically downloads a PDF file - it doesn't tell you that is what it is doing, and you don;t get another screen. At least I do know what it means when the little blue arrow in the upper right of my browser means. In this file I find the price is $0.91. That's a saving of $0.70 - Which is the right one, both?
My concept of "rigid", for example when I use cardboard straighteners when I mail out something like panes, turns out to be a "flat" at my local P.O. so I don't put stamps on stuff I mail out that way. I generally put $1 or more too much. I do have a scale at home. If I try to be conversational and ask how much the envelope weighs, and tell about using the web site to determine how much a rigid large envelope costs, they say they don't know anything about the web site, that it is a "flat". No matter what I say, the concept of rigid or large-size doesn't ring any bells, it is a "flat". I ask generally how much these are based on weight and size, they say "it is a flat". I don't see anything about "flats" on the web site. I may be showing a lot of ignorance here, but I'm not stupid enough to try doing a search for "flat".
I am thinking about finally growing up and mailing internationally. Is the international rate truly international, or is it for most countries only? Do I have to do customs for an order of 5 bucks? Will I get a better price if I go through the above process?
Weighing the facts that my sales are relatively few and most not for all that much, I am wondering if it is worth my while.
I admit that I am not in the top 2 percent of internet pros.
Of course, now that I have this information I won't need to go through this again, at least for Canada. Until the whole price structure changes.
Is there a reasonably-priced competitor, yet, and how do I best express my outrage to the USPS? Write the postmaster general or whatever he or she is called?
I'm spending my time ranting and raving because traffic is just too much, to go out shopping and spend any money on last-minute presents.
Otherwise, Merry and Happy!
Screen 4 has one option, international first class for $1.61 However, if I choose "Price Charts and Complete Information", I get Screen 5 "County Conditions For Mailing - Canada". If I scroll through this and watch carefully I find the "Refer To Notice 123" which automatically downloads a PDF file - it doesn't tell you that is what it is doing, and you don;t get another screen. At least I do know what it means when the little blue arrow in the upper right of my browser means. In this file I find the price is $0.91. That's a saving of $0.70 - Which is the right one, both?
My concept of "rigid", for example when I use cardboard straighteners when I mail out something like panes, turns out to be a "flat" at my local P.O. so I don't put stamps on stuff I mail out that way. I generally put $1 or more too much. I do have a scale at home. If I try to be conversational and ask how much the envelope weighs, and tell about using the web site to determine how much a rigid large envelope costs, they say they don't know anything about the web site, that it is a "flat". No matter what I say, the concept of rigid or large-size doesn't ring any bells, it is a "flat". I ask generally how much these are based on weight and size, they say "it is a flat". I don't see anything about "flats" on the web site. I may be showing a lot of ignorance here, but I'm not stupid enough to try doing a search for "flat".
I am thinking about finally growing up and mailing internationally. Is the international rate truly international, or is it for most countries only? Do I have to do customs for an order of 5 bucks? Will I get a better price if I go through the above process?
Weighing the facts that my sales are relatively few and most not for all that much, I am wondering if it is worth my while.
I admit that I am not in the top 2 percent of internet pros.
Of course, now that I have this information I won't need to go through this again, at least for Canada. Until the whole price structure changes.
Is there a reasonably-priced competitor, yet, and how do I best express my outrage to the USPS? Write the postmaster general or whatever he or she is called?
I'm spending my time ranting and raving because traffic is just too much, to go out shopping and spend any money on last-minute presents.
Otherwise, Merry and Happy!
Comments
I'm only the messenger, and you don't have to keep trying to prove your point by quoting the rules to me. I know what they are. I used to manage a multi-million dollar per year mail center, and had direct ties to the USPS with annual postage costs of almost $1.5 million.
I mailed a few stamps in a first class letter-sized envelope. I had the customs form on it. The clerk tried to scan in the bar code on the customs form. The system would not permit her to scan the number as a first class letter. It would not let her scan it as a first class large envelope. She said that the only first class mailing method that the system permitted a scan of the customs form was first class parcel, at a much higher rate. She removed the customs form from the envelope, and the item was placed into the mail stream.
If you don't like my explanation of what happened to me at a post office, and what I was told, then I suggest you try the same process that I did at your post office, see what happens and report back to us on the results.
They aren't going to come after me for mailing $1.25 worth of stamps to Australia.
Be happy, smile a lot, people will wonder what you're up to.
A flat is a mail piece that is too big in at least one direction to be a letter, but not so big that it won't run through automated sorting equipment. If your post office is telling you it's a flat (Large Envelope), that means it is not considered "rigid" and will go through auto-sorting. So a flat is a large envelope that can go through the sorting machine - 3 oz would cost you $1.40
That means that you have a flat if ANY of the following are true: •its shorter side is more than 6⅛ inches but not more than 12 inches; or,
•its longer side is more than 11½ inches but not more than 15 inches; or,
•it is more ¼ inch thick but not more than ¾ inch thick, (except Periodical Class nonmachinable flats, which may be up to 1¼ inches thick.)
Note that a mail piece is a "flat" if it meets at least one of those requirements. It does not need to meet all of them. So if your piece is larger or thicker in any allowable dimension to be a "letter", and is not larger or thicker than the maximums for flats, it is a flat, even if it fits the other dimensions for a letter.
All flats (except Periodical Class nonmachinable flats) must be flexible enough to go through automated sorting equipment, but not be too "flimsy". In general, a normal card or envelope will be ok.
3 ounces to Canada (letter size) is $1.61. Up to and including 2 ounces is a $1.15.
International shipping: $1.15 for 1 oz everywhere. Then it varies by country - 2 oz $1.98 - $2.13
Customs Forms: This always creates controversy. For a $5.00 order I do not use a customs form.
I am not sure where you got the information on the customs forms not being used on non-parcels. from but this is from the IMM
240 First-Class Mail International
242.2 Customs Forms Required
242.21 Dutiable Merchandise
The following conditions apply to dutiable merchandise mailed with First–Class Mail International service:
Any merchandise sent to another country may be subject to duty under the customs regulations of that country. The Postal Service does not maintain or provide information concerning the assessment of customs duty.
First-Class Mail International items may contain dutiable merchandise unless the country of destination prohibits dutiable merchandise in letters. (See the Individual Country Listings.)
When mailing an article that may be dutiable, the sender must use PS Form 2976 (see 123) and must also follow the special instructions under “Customs Forms Required” and “Observations” in the Individual Country Listings.
The maximum value for dutiable merchandise is $400. Items exceeding $400 must be mailed using Global Express Guaranteed service, Priority Mail Express International service, or Priority Mail International service.
Section 250 deals with First class parcels
250 First-Class Package International Service
USPS
https://pe.usps.com/text/imm/immc2_016.htm
I stopped shipping international nearly two years ago. If I'm correctly understanding the use of First-Class Mail International today, the USPS seems to be accepting customs forms on First-Class Mail International envelopes. In the absence of a customs form, I guess USPS is willing to assume the First-Class Mail International envelopes contain no dutiable items.
Does the USPS web site contain a listing of countries that accept merchandise via First-Class Mail International letters? I didn't find one? Has anyone else posted such a list?
See what most people miss on the customs forms is that if somewhere along the line those envelopes should get opened
on the receiving end by the customs of their country and they see that it is merchandise it can cause all kinds of problems for the customer as far as customs and duties or they can even confiscate the merchandise. (Which means you are SOL if they do confiscate it they WILL not return it to you)
Due to the fact that it is federal law some people just assume that it is not a big deal,that is not the case in these matters.
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/customs-violations.htm
Customs
Penalties
Violating customs laws can result in significant penalties, both for an individual and any organization involved in the violation. Customs penalties vary depending on the particulars of the violation, but may include civil or criminal penalties. Criminal penalties differ depending on the nature of the crime you're convicted of, but typically include several possible punishments.
Fines. Criminal fines for customs violation can be significant. A single criminal act can result in fines of anywhere from a few thousand dollars to a million dollars or more.
Prison. Prison sentences are possible for some customs violations, especially those that involve smuggling. For example, making a false declaration when entering the country can lead to a sentence of up to two years in prison, while violating some export restrictions can result in a 10 year prison sentence per offense.
Probation. Customs violations can also lead to probation sentences. A person sentenced to probation must serve at least a 12 month sentence, though possibly much longer, during which time he or she must comply with a variety of court imposed rules. These rules limit what the probationer can do, such as requiring the person to report to a probation officer, asking the officer's permission to move or leave the country, staying out of any more trouble with the law, and paying all fines and court costs.
Not doing so can result in both fines and prison time. And those laws have some serious teeth.
When I worked for the Federal government I had those penalties explained to me in great detail by both our Inspector General's office as well as Customs Agents when I tried to mail a used hand drawn postcard in an envelope as a gift to a friend in Canada..It's value was under $5. That cured me of any desire to ever send anything out of the country again.
I don't think most window clerks care but it only takes one........
It is as confusing to postal clerks as the inane differences between first class, non-machinable and parcel is - we have probably a dozen different clerks for our 3 windows and if I go in with a standard rigid photo mailer that actually measures .257 inch (it squeezes through the go-nogo template they have but it is over 1/4 inch, barely) I never know whether it's going to be around 80 cents, around a dollar and a quarter , or $3.00.
One clerk fresh out of training said they were trained to try to bend it at a 90 degree angle and if it wouldn't bend a full 90 degrees then it was rigid........common sense doesn't work.
The problems are widespread .....
Offshore sales can form a large part of my income. At the moment the US$ is riding high compared to most other major currencies, but at some point that will change and there will be lots of buyers from outside the US. Get used to international shipping now and be ready for the surge that will come at some point.
As to the USPS website I don't use it a lot but it is no worse than Canada Post.
It is good to hear from someone that the international rate globals might really mean what they say.
John and Dennis - I should have mentioned, I do ship to Canada, because it is pretty easy and straightforward (altho I'd still like to see if I could get away with using the PDF amount!) It's reassuring that Canada and the US work so well together. I always tend to err on the side of not getting something returned for not enough postage.
I have had a very few people overseas ask me about what the postage would be and if I would mail to them It always worked out ok but my better-safe-than-sorry method is probably inflated more than it needs to be. So if I make it plain that I do then some people might not be driven away.
But the bottom line is that I think I'll try using some of these moons and wreaths I've stored up.
And to all, a good night!
It doesn't have to be 1/4" thick or a padded mailer. (If you use the postage calculator on the USPS website they do show that an envelope that contains merchandise can still go as a first class letter as long as the envelope is large enough for the forms to be attached to the envelope and still fits within the letter size designation.
You do realize that the reason they have to Sharpie the tracking number on a first class international letter is because they do NOT track first class international letters. The number on the customs form is used as the tracking number which you DO NOT pay for when it is sent first class letter rate. I would venture to guess that they are NOT suppose to REMOVE the form and are ONLY suppose to ink out the tracking number since the custom form is required BY LAW to be attached to the mailing.
If you don't require the tacking number it seems to me that you are paying way too much for the upgrade since the USPS does show on THEIR site that a first class international letter that weighs 3 oz,contents are rigid and contains $25 worth of merchandise can be sent via first class international letter rate to Australia for $3.33 and they show that it does NEED A CUSTOM form and can go that way.
When you get to this page
Postage Price Calculator
click normal delivery time
and this is what they show on the next page which is titled EXTRA SERVICES
1. The envelope contains only documents
See 123.63 for additional information concerning "documents".
No Form Needed
2. The envelope's contents are potentially dutiable (i.e. Merchandise, Goods)
2.1. The content value is less than or equal to $400
PS Form 2976, Customs - CN 22 - Sender's Declaration (online form)
2.2. The content value is greater than $400
Items over $400 are not allowed to be mailed using this service. The item must be mailed using Global Express Guaranteed service, Priority Mail Express International service, or Priority Mail International service. Please choose another mailing service.
I would talk to the postmaster about this and if you don't get any where contain the USPS costumer service.
That's well and good that you know what the rules are suppose to be. The thing is do you really want to take that chance with customs that it doesn't come back to bite you in the rear end? It's not the PO's name on the return address,it's YOURS and whom do you think they would go after?
http://beta.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-postal-service-s-problems-20151001-column.html
First you did NOT mention it was only $1.25 worth of stamps. Second that is not the point I am trying to get across.
Would you have tried to send that order out via first class mail if it had been $100 worth of stamps without a customs form or would you have gone ahead and paid the parcel rate to make sure the customs form was attached? The PO must have a work around in order for the customs form to be attached and STILL fall under the first class international mail rate.
Unless you like paying 13.75 first class package rate to Australia as opposed to 2.34 for first class international mail.
Remember you are sending these things as a BUSINESS and as a business they can view non-compliance as NEGLIGENCE as opposed to ignorance. Grandma sending $10 worth of Pokomon cards to her grandson in Japan is NOT going to viewed the same way as a business sending merchandise. What you're missing on that is even though it is one order for $1.25 you are sending those stamps as a business,as a business the question would be is it just the one or has it been a long term non-compliance? Even if they wouldn't do anything on this one mailing how do you think they catch people with multiple counts of non-compliance?
As with any other government agency the old adage of the CYB principal still applies.
The main thing is as long as NO ONE complains to USPS customer service about how the PO is handling this it will not change. What I am going to do is write customer service and see if I can get an answer on this from them. And I will post both the letter and their response when they get back to me.