DC on your "color question" regarding the difference between Ochre Brown and Yellow Brown, you may be able to get some sense by the name, but Ochre in itself can range from yellow to orange to brown, so unfortunately when they get "creative" with the shades, there is little commonality to draw from. Shades will probably mean you need at least one example of each, and once you know what they look like, you may not need to compare gain. (Or you have the crazy variations of subtlety like you get with the US 70 and US 78s and you need a massive reference collection to be able to get them right). Scott even does things like in the 1860's names the color of a stamp "Vermilion" and then in the 1900's calls another stamp "Vermilion" and the two colors next to each other look nothing alike. So you can't necessarily rely on the color variation from another issue, or another country to help narrow that down. Color is the one thing in philatelics that you can't just know without experience of looking at, and comparing in some cases hundreds of copies until you can either do it by visual reference, or know that you have to have a reference copy(s) to gauge from. So, have fun with that.
The one thing I will advise against: Don't buy "color identifiers" or "color pallets" that are sold to new philatelists... they are useless.
Hahaha, thanks Rich!? Dang it.....I had this feeling after the posts, etc. But hey, to me they were free, so no biggie. Grandpa may be spinning in the grave, but who knows what he paid for them...so no hard feelings.
So, biiiiig question of the evening....what to use to AS SAFE AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE remove a stamp from a page of the book..... with minimal damage to it or the book. Most are hinged well and move easily. Some, seem adhered to said pages (thank goodness none have been of any consequence thus far). Suggestions?
Second since I haven't bugged in a while...hehe. found this overprint on a stamp that is not particularly important. Thoughts on places to look for said overprint or value differences in typical 25c stamp?
Or is this just considered used/metered to some extent?
DC, I posted on how to get stamps off stuck pages before... and personally, I prioritize the condition of the stamp over the condition of a page (which can always be replaced, even if you have to make one).
That said, there is ONE other thing you can try, and I didn't mention it before because it's a fairly difficult process, and it also doesn't always work. BUT, you can try to FREEZE the page. Not long, just enough to get it nice and cold (take the page out of the album, place is on a dry metal tray, put into the freezer for 30 minutes.)
Once it's cold, (below 0C/32F) try to curl the page under the stamp (Like you were going to fold the page, but stop short of that, and allow it to "round" the edge of the page under the stamp). This will many times allow the stamp to release, however it may still thin the stamp, or result in gum loss, or result in some adhesion from the page it's stuck to. But, you have a chance of getting some freed this way, especially if they are lightly adhered. Also, roll the page perpendicular to the adhesion. So if it's mostly tuck at the top or bottom, roll the page under the stamp from right to left. And if it's mostly stuck at one side or the other, role the page top to bottom of the stamp. This will allow the stamp to do some of the work, as the paper will then provide resistance to the adhered stamp.
I have gotten old collections that have a group of stamps in a glassine, and have maybe 25 or 30 mostly stuck to each other. I can usually get 15% - 20% free without much of a visual issue (the gum will be disturbed). And for the rest, I usually then just soak the to (no gum) or maybe allow a few to be "sacrificed" to gain a few that are still mostly gum in tact with maybe some adherence from the stamp below it.
But I would only do this for low value stamps (under $20 or so). For a high value stamp, you have to ask, is a No Gum stamp worth more than a stamp with OG that has a thin or a tear because you tried to remove it in tact? Consider the value, and then decide on your approach.
As for the stamp above... let me Google that for you... Seriously, a single search for "Belgian Precancels" popped up a number of examples of exactly this precancel... You really need to start to learn to search for these terms first. It's an easy search. When you can't find it, then bring it round.
I found this just now as I read your post. Its just a lot of databasing so I get exhausted after cataloging 50 or 60.....
Most aren't worth squat, but I like them so I'm digging it. I will try to freeze it slightly if needed, but so far I haven't had any seriously expensive stamps that warrant a feat of that magnitude yet.
Also, I found this. I found the pre cancel. That wasn't the issue. In scotts standard catalog that he sent me its Belgium page 821 (390 series) but there are NONE in the book for 5c orange with that pre cancel.
So, I suppose my prior question should have been phrased more specifically. Is it common (or simply considered used) to see overstamps from off years/catalog listings on different or non listed denomination amounts?
For instance, I found the stamp above, common. Found the overprint issues, also common. But there wasn't a listing for that stamp with that year/type of overprint.
Similarly, check this out.... I found these on hipstamp and online, but not like this one ...not even remotely like this one. I know you mentioned coloring differences being fairly common, but this different???
Also....notice the leopard tail curls the wrong way (in the scotts catalog it doesn't do that, it curls down then up) ....im concerned I either 1) have the wrong issue stamp 2) its a total fake 3) I have something here worth looking at.
DC, there are lots and lots and lots of color variations that don't appear in Scott in almost every country, including the US even at the specialized edition. These can be for many reasons, which may include as you eluded to: Intentional color alteration (Chemical alteration) Unintentional color changeling (exposure to sun light, sulfur, carbon dioxide) Color variations that Scott just doesn't recognize (or they fall within a "spectrum" of shades like the 10, 11, 65)
There may be other sources of color study and some scare color variations on common stamps can still be of value (like the US 65 which has the shade Deep Pinkish Rose with a CV 10x that of a garden variety 65 yet doesn't get a secondary designation (like 65a or 65q), where the variations of the 64 do get such designations (64a, 64b). This is an arbitrary area that SCOTT does not adequately explain their designation criteria.
But seek other sources for this kind of thing. But in most cases, a common stamp is likely to still have a similarly lower value. Even the 65 has a CV of $3, and the Deep Pinkish Rose color variety is $30. So 10x the value, of a low value stamp.
Get to know your color changelings though. Orange can turn brown, purple and violet tend to turn grey, or even greenish (I've seen in some revenue issues). Other colors hold extremely well, so if you see really wide variation, it's likely chemically altered.
Now, about separating your stamps, these "cheap common" ones then are great practice for when it matters. So try it first with some of the ones that are very low value, and then when you need to make a decision on a $100+ stamp, you can pick the best path, and with a success rate/risk factor you can accept.
I want to thank you and Ted for being so great at this. As was my fear, I had the wrong Identified stamp in this case.....Still learning, but I do appreciate all of the advice here!
See, that is basically night and day. I'd say standard scotts coloration goes, and way off color variations are worth something (although probably not much of a premium if its a cheap stamp), but more than book I'd assume.
DC, well, that depends on WHY the variation exists. If it is a color changeling (in Kris' example, it looks to me like the stamp on the left was left out in the sun, and as a result, the color has faded. That's not a "color variation" that would be recognized by Scott, because it was not an original ink color that was used in the stamp printing. Same as if an orange stamp turns brown, that's not a color variation, it's a "changeling", and under strong magnification (50x or higher) that base color can be seen in small dots of pigment. These are not considered color variations by Scott.
I know you're dealing mostly with world-wide, and I'm expressing mostly about US stamps, but that is my specialization, however, this applies world-wide as well. But a good example is to look at any of the "Carmine" versus "Lake" color variations in the early 20th century issues. Lots of issues around this time have a "Lake" variety which is almost always worth a lot more than it's Carmine counterpart. This deeper rich red shade is notably different, and notably much more scarce than the carmine shades.
In a similar comparison, presence of H/I grills on early Large Bank Note issues is the only difference between National Bank Notes with grill versus National Bank Note without. However we sometimes see only a tiny fragment of the grill patterns in the stamp. But even the presence of 1 row (or 1 column) of grill points tells us, it's at least an H grill. Now not having the full grill may not appeal to some collectors, BUT, it does validate it as the earlier (higher value) Scott #. These Major Varieties (which get their own Catalog Numbers), are akin to genuine color variations. If you look at almost any listing in Scott as well too, you'll find that there isn't "one" color for that issue. Take the 68 for example which is listed as a 68 at either Green or Yellow Green, but also 68a as Dark Green and Blue Green. Each of these is a shade variation that is the result of a difference in ink pigmentation. But a "Blue Green" 68a left in the sun does not become a "Yellow Green" 68. It will just be a UV change stamp if some of the blue goes missing. This is VERY hard to detect, and a lot of expertise and reference copies are needed to make such a distinction.
So the "scarcity" of a color variety is determined at least in part by the number of copies of the known shades that were produced for a particular issue.
So to sum up, the issue of color variation, and its scarcity and value is a factor of whether it is an actual color variation due to pigmentation and the number (availability) of copies in the market, versus a color variation due to changeling which in every case, reduces the value of the stamp (it's a type of "damage").
Comments
Scott even does things like in the 1860's names the color of a stamp "Vermilion" and then in the 1900's calls another stamp "Vermilion" and the two colors next to each other look nothing alike. So you can't necessarily rely on the color variation from another issue, or another country to help narrow that down. Color is the one thing in philatelics that you can't just know without experience of looking at, and comparing in some cases hundreds of copies until you can either do it by visual reference, or know that you have to have a reference copy(s) to gauge from. So, have fun with that.
The one thing I will advise against: Don't buy "color identifiers" or "color pallets" that are sold to new philatelists... they are useless.
Thanks as always!
DC
Or is this just considered used/metered to some extent?
That said, there is ONE other thing you can try, and I didn't mention it before because it's a fairly difficult process, and it also doesn't always work. BUT, you can try to FREEZE the page. Not long, just enough to get it nice and cold (take the page out of the album, place is on a dry metal tray, put into the freezer for 30 minutes.)
Once it's cold, (below 0C/32F) try to curl the page under the stamp (Like you were going to fold the page, but stop short of that, and allow it to "round" the edge of the page under the stamp). This will many times allow the stamp to release, however it may still thin the stamp, or result in gum loss, or result in some adhesion from the page it's stuck to. But, you have a chance of getting some freed this way, especially if they are lightly adhered. Also, roll the page perpendicular to the adhesion. So if it's mostly tuck at the top or bottom, roll the page under the stamp from right to left. And if it's mostly stuck at one side or the other, role the page top to bottom of the stamp. This will allow the stamp to do some of the work, as the paper will then provide resistance to the adhered stamp.
I have gotten old collections that have a group of stamps in a glassine, and have maybe 25 or 30 mostly stuck to each other. I can usually get 15% - 20% free without much of a visual issue (the gum will be disturbed). And for the rest, I usually then just soak the to (no gum) or maybe allow a few to be "sacrificed" to gain a few that are still mostly gum in tact with maybe some adherence from the stamp below it.
But I would only do this for low value stamps (under $20 or so). For a high value stamp, you have to ask, is a No Gum stamp worth more than a stamp with OG that has a thin or a tear because you tried to remove it in tact? Consider the value, and then decide on your approach.
As for the stamp above... let me Google that for you...
Seriously, a single search for "Belgian Precancels" popped up a number of examples of exactly this precancel... You really need to start to learn to search for these terms first. It's an easy search. When you can't find it, then bring it round.
Most aren't worth squat, but I like them so I'm digging it. I will try to freeze it slightly if needed, but so far I haven't had any seriously expensive stamps that warrant a feat of that magnitude yet.
Also, I found this. I found the pre cancel. That wasn't the issue. In scotts standard catalog that he sent me its Belgium page 821 (390 series) but there are NONE in the book for 5c orange with that pre cancel.
For instance, I found the stamp above, common. Found the overprint issues, also common. But there wasn't a listing for that stamp with that year/type of overprint.
Similarly, check this out.... I found these on hipstamp and online, but not like this one ...not even remotely like this one. I know you mentioned coloring differences being fairly common, but this different???
1) have the wrong issue stamp
2) its a total fake
3) I have something here worth looking at.
DC, there are lots and lots and lots of color variations that don't appear in Scott in almost every country, including the US even at the specialized edition. These can be for many reasons, which may include as you eluded to:
Intentional color alteration (Chemical alteration)
Unintentional color changeling (exposure to sun light, sulfur, carbon dioxide)
Color variations that Scott just doesn't recognize (or they fall within a "spectrum" of shades like the 10, 11, 65)
There may be other sources of color study and some scare color variations on common stamps can still be of value (like the US 65 which has the shade Deep Pinkish Rose with a CV 10x that of a garden variety 65 yet doesn't get a secondary designation (like 65a or 65q), where the variations of the 64 do get such designations (64a, 64b). This is an arbitrary area that SCOTT does not adequately explain their designation criteria.
But seek other sources for this kind of thing. But in most cases, a common stamp is likely to still have a similarly lower value. Even the 65 has a CV of $3, and the Deep Pinkish Rose color variety is $30. So 10x the value, of a low value stamp.
Get to know your color changelings though. Orange can turn brown, purple and violet tend to turn grey, or even greenish (I've seen in some revenue issues). Other colors hold extremely well, so if you see really wide variation, it's likely chemically altered.
Now, about separating your stamps, these "cheap common" ones then are great practice for when it matters. So try it first with some of the ones that are very low value, and then when you need to make a decision on a $100+ stamp, you can pick the best path, and with a success rate/risk factor you can accept.
Here's an example of the color variation in two British #114's
That is what anything is worth.
I know you're dealing mostly with world-wide, and I'm expressing mostly about US stamps, but that is my specialization, however, this applies world-wide as well. But a good example is to look at any of the "Carmine" versus "Lake" color variations in the early 20th century issues. Lots of issues around this time have a "Lake" variety which is almost always worth a lot more than it's Carmine counterpart. This deeper rich red shade is notably different, and notably much more scarce than the carmine shades.
In a similar comparison, presence of H/I grills on early Large Bank Note issues is the only difference between National Bank Notes with grill versus National Bank Note without. However we sometimes see only a tiny fragment of the grill patterns in the stamp. But even the presence of 1 row (or 1 column) of grill points tells us, it's at least an H grill. Now not having the full grill may not appeal to some collectors, BUT, it does validate it as the earlier (higher value) Scott #. These Major Varieties (which get their own Catalog Numbers), are akin to genuine color variations. If you look at almost any listing in Scott as well too, you'll find that there isn't "one" color for that issue. Take the 68 for example which is listed as a 68 at either Green or Yellow Green, but also 68a as Dark Green and Blue Green. Each of these is a shade variation that is the result of a difference in ink pigmentation. But a "Blue Green" 68a left in the sun does not become a "Yellow Green" 68. It will just be a UV change stamp if some of the blue goes missing. This is VERY hard to detect, and a lot of expertise and reference copies are needed to make such a distinction.
So the "scarcity" of a color variety is determined at least in part by the number of copies of the known shades that were produced for a particular issue.
So to sum up, the issue of color variation, and its scarcity and value is a factor of whether it is an actual color variation due to pigmentation and the number (availability) of copies in the market, versus a color variation due to changeling which in every case, reduces the value of the stamp (it's a type of "damage").
That's sounds cheap and fast...
This is the best Jimmi....even if it was written by Bobby.
And Bear Mcredey(?) did an excellent cover for Battlestar Galactica